Christina McKelvy: 0:13

Welcome to Hopeology. Stories of Hope, healing and Resilience. I'm your host, Christina McKelvy. Today we speak with Dr Andrea Annibale. She shares about her journey having a later in life career change and how she navigated graduate school. We explore the importance of human connection and self-compassion, grief and life transitions and how those themes inform her work. She also talks about the importance of showing up authentically and being an LGBTQ ally. We will be right back. Welcome to Hopeology. Stories of Hope, healing and Resilience. I'm your host, christina McKelvy. Today we have Andrea. How are you? I'm doing really well. How about you Doing well? Thank you. So you've been in your practice for about a year.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 1:40

Just a little over a year oh congratulations Thank you.

Christina McKelvy: 1:45

Oh, tell me a little bit about yourself, your focus or, you know, just kind of your background as a psychologist. So I'm a baby psychologist and a baby psychologist is what I call myself.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 1:56

Yeah, I'm new to the career field. I worked in higher education for about 15 years before I decided to go back to school and become a psychologist. I don't know. Let's see, I opened my practice about a year ago and I have learned that I really love working with people who are struggling with being human. So you know what that looks like in terms of trauma or life transitions, or you know, I have a lot of people whose relationships are changing with their loved ones, whether it's the end of a relationship or children moving into adulthood or the loss of someone special to them. I also really, really love supporting our LGBTQ community here. So I have a lot of teens who are exploring gender identity and what that means and things along those lines. So I haven't quite narrowed down to one specific focus, more so just encompassing broadly just what it means to me, a person, and the stuff that we struggle with here.

Christina McKelvy: 3:04

You mentioned people struggling with being human, and that's a struggle it can be.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 3:10

It is a struggle and we don't really live in a society that values or embraces self-compassion. There's a lot of perfectionism and expectation that we place on ourselves as well as others, and you know, I found that the more expectations let me rephrase that the more non-communicated expectations that we have of other people, the more we tend to have on ourselves, and so people really struggle with that. You know Also, you know grief. When people talk about grief or think about grief, oftentimes they're only looking at it in terms of death and those significant relationship losses. But really grief can mean anything that is presenting differently now than the way you had anticipated or expected.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 4:03

So you know the loss of what you thought your career might look like or your relationship with your children might look, or the relationship with your partner. You know when we're diet, you know sometimes one of somebody close to you will be diagnosed with a pretty significant health concern or issue, and there can be grief associated with pivoting and figuring out like what is my life look like now or what is their life going to look like now? We have these retirement plans, or we have these travel plans, or you know, I don't have grandkids yet, so what does it mean, now that my health is changing, what is my mobility going to look like and my accessibility to certain areas and things along those lines? So I think there's, there are just so many pieces to being human that we maybe don't think about or consider as just, yeah, this is, this is what it's like to be a person, to live in this world, and sometimes it's really really hard and we struggle.

Christina McKelvy: 5:07

You mentioned, grief is not just about death, but it's about those transitions, you call them those pivots in life, which is something that is the human experience. Very much so, yeah. And how do you navigate that experience or help your you know your clients navigate that human experience, those transitions Like? Do you use, like, the stages of grief? You know, elizabeth Kuboros, you know references to stages of grief and I know I use that with my clients for transitions. But how else do you help them through the human journey?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 5:41

I think it's a little bit different with everyone, you know, so for some people they want something a little bit more expedient maybe. So EMDR is a really common trauma intervention. I use something called accelerated resolution therapy. It's similar to EMDR but just a little bit different, and I have a link to that on my website if you want to go into more detail around that. So sometimes it's like a brief, targeted type of intervention, but for me I find a lot of times it's just sitting with them, just being present and allowing them to tell their story the way in a way that is genuine and authentic to them.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 6:24

I want to provide a space for my clients where they feel seen and heard in, maybe a way that they're not able to feel seen and heard in their everyday life.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 6:35

A place where they can just come in and exhale and breathe and go yeah, this is what's happening and I don't know what to do about it. And this is how I'm feeling or this is what it looks like, and just kind of exploring what it means for them to be in that space and then weaving in. I think I use a lot of Kristin Neff's self-compassion framework, what it means to just turn inward and say, well, what if we didn't have that expectation? What if it looked a little bit different? And does it allow you the freedom and the flexibility to maybe consider options that you couldn't have before?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 7:15

That's the other thing is, sometimes we hold onto ourselves a little too tightly and, as we know, when you grab onto something, living tightly, it goggles and struggles to get free. That's all it wants. And so, whether you're holding on too tightly to yourself or a relationship or a job or whatever, people don't like to feel confined, and so sometimes it's just bringing that to light and seeing how we can release that grip just a little bit so that we can breathe and think more clearly, to be able to make different types of decisions as we're moving through the grief or transition or the pivot or whatever it is.

Christina McKelvy: 7:56

It's hard to move through those transitions, Like you said, when there is a tight grip, when you're trying to hold onto something in the past or if someone else is trying to hold onto that thing for you.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 8:07

Yeah, to be expectations that other people have on you. And then you put that on and you impose it on yourself. Well, I was supposed to be this, or I was supposed to do that, or this is what the plan was. It's like. Well, that's lovely. What if the plan was a little bit different? What if we just tweaked it a little bit? Then what would happen?

Christina McKelvy: 8:29

Right if we looked at it from a different angle, and you mentioned one of your big focuses also is on the LGBTQ plus community, and I'm curious how, being human and supporting them through their journey and just sitting with them, like you said, what that does for them? What does that does for that community?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 8:52

Yeah well, not being part of the community, I can't speak firsthand. I just wanna say that I You're an ally. I'm an ally.

Christina McKelvy: 9:00

You're an ally.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 9:01

Being an ally. It's one of my favorite favorite roles. If I can't be in it, then I wanna stand proudly next to and or support and lift up and raise up and bring other people into positions. So I can't speak from firsthand experience and or knowledge, only with the feedback that I've been provided and then with my own intentions. So I strongly believe that, especially in the therapeutic space, where people are supposed to be received with no judgments and all of these other ideas that we have around what therapy looks like, I feel like it's really super important to healing to be able to show up authentically, whatever that means. Because if we can't say what's true and what's real and acknowledge it, then how do we know how to work with it, heal it, grow it, empower it? You know so, and that goes for the LGBTQ community as well, as, you know, every other individual.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 10:14

I just feel it's really important to be able to be authentic, and so within our community it's very small and very conservative, and this is new. You know we have a whole generation of humans who are really embracing what it means to feel good in their skin and in their identity, and so we have to be authentic. To be authentic, we have the adults that have gone before them that have said you know, this is what I'd like, this is what it should be. And then we have our teams who are coming up watching the models who have gone before them saying you know, I've always been curious about this, or I've always struggled with this part of me. What does that look like?

Christina McKelvy: 11:00

How do you create space for individuals such as you know, those that are part of the LGBT community, to be able to feel authentic within your therapy room, and how do you also be authentic towards them? So how do?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 11:10

I create space for them. Yeah, I just allow them to say what they want to say and encourage them to explore that. You know. What does that mean for you? What does that look like? What kind of pressure are you coming up against? How? How does safety play into this? Who do you feel safe? Sharing your authentic self with Safety plan? Yeah, who do you feel unsafe? Sharing your authentic self with? You know, and again, not being what was the second part of the question, I'm curious how does a therapist show up authentically?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 11:51

Oh, how do I show up authentically as a therapist? How do I show up authentically as a therapist? I think that's just one of the well, I've gotten feedback that. That's just one of the things that I do. I'm not afraid to be ridiculous, awesome. I'm not afraid to call myself out. I'm not afraid to, when I make a mistake, quickly correct it.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 12:17

Always, in my you know, introductory phase of meeting somebody, invite them to share feedback with me. You know, this is the one place you should be able to say that made me uncomfortable. I don't know what you meant by that. You're faced with a thing. Right then, what are you thinking? You know, like, just as I will encourage them to explore, I encourage them to challenge me Because I feel like this you know, the therapeutic space is where you practice hard things.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 12:47

It's where you practice being a person in self advocacy and communicating in ways maybe you don't feel safe to do out in the real world because there might be some sort of retribution or it might come back to bite you later on. You know, somebody might hold a grudge. Well, I don't have that type of emotional. I care deeply about my clients, but there's no reason I have to hold a grudge or to be upset or to be triggered by what they've said to me. So I really encourage them from the get go, challenge me. If you have a question, ask.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 13:17

And there have been times that I'll say something and I'll hear it come out of my mouth and I'll stop and say let me explain what I mean by that. Let me, you know, or maybe a few minutes will have gone by and you know I've said something that could have been perceived like 15 different ways and one of them was really not good. I'll pause and go hold on just a second. I said something a minute ago. I just want to clarify what I meant by that and see if you had any questions about that.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 13:45

So I think that's how I show up authentically is that I'm willing to pause and reflect and encourage them to challenge and to be ridiculous and to be a person and you know, occasionally I try to do it very sparingly. You know share about yeah, here was a time I felt like that, you know, and it seems like the times that I have chosen to do that, you know, the feedback is like really, that's great. So it's not just me, I'm not alone, you're not alone. We're people. You know, we're all just people. Of course I struggle. It took me an entire adult life to figure out this career with something that I would enjoy, you know. So those are the ways that I do that.

Christina McKelvy: 14:34

It seems like by allowing them to be authentic, or starting off with you being authentic, as a therapist, it gives them the space to be authentic back, and within authenticity there is safety.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 14:46

Yes, there's that connectedness, which is why I named my practice one Psychological Services, because I was wondering, yeah, and I've kind of struggled with how to present that on my website in a way that makes sense. But it's the connectedness, it's the humanness in each of us, the need to be, that innate need, whether we're consciously aware of it or not, to be seen and known and heard and validated and loved and accepted at some level for who we are. There's oneness within that and I don't think we're as separate and divided as humans as we like to think we are. I mean, there are certainly big things that we can see differences, you know, whether it's being part of different ethnicities or communities or geographic locations, but it all goes back to humanism, right? That those basic underlying needs that we have as people are all the same, and so if we can see what connects us as people, then suddenly the other stuff doesn't quite matter as much, because we're all just trying to get our needs met in some way. So that's why it's one.

Christina McKelvy: 16:05

Now one Psychological Services speaks to that name, speaks to the need, as humans, to be connected. That's a basic need.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 16:19

Food, water, shelter connected. Love, love, being loved, being cared for, being welcomed in having somebody wrap their arms around you, whether it's literally or metaphorically, embracing you for who you are as a person.

Christina McKelvy: 16:40

Allowing you to be seen and authentic.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 16:44

Those are the things I love.

Christina McKelvy: 16:48

I can tell you're smiling, your face is glowing, yeah yeah. Curious how, if you're okay and comfortable sharing, just in your own journey towards where you are now, were there moments where you're like I was truly seen and heard and that impacted me in a great way, or those moments where you felt seen and heard? And you're able to be authentic and how it brought you to where you are now.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 17:17

I have really good people, I have the best people. So I think, as I'm scanning, there are some really primary people who have seen me and heard me in different ways. And I have yeah, I mean my husband is, he knows me better than I know myself sometimes and there are moments where he, just we take turns centering each other and so in the moments when he, when I can spiral and he can center, those are moments I feel seen and heard.

Christina McKelvy: 18:01

What do you mean by centering? What does that look like for you and your husband?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 18:05

I think you know, when you're stressed about something, can you just spiral. Yes, that's what I mean by that.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 18:11

Very familiar, I don't know. I need to say that they haven't been stressed and they don't sometimes spiral. So you know, when either one of the two of us are kind of reeling out about something, being able to be the calm that says, okay, these are the options and here's what I'm noticing, or here's what I'm seeing, or what do you need right now? And sometimes you know he doesn't even have to say, he just knows that I what I need to go hug, and so that's where he'll start.

Christina McKelvy: 18:41

I tell my husband the same. I tell him that he's actually my calm. Those are my wedding vows actually.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 18:47

Oh, that's so nice. Absolutely, and I will say I mean I could go on my closest friend that I've known since fifth grade, isn't she? She's also an Andrea whisperer and Andrea whisperer she is. Yeah, the two of them know how to whisper me and just but my kids, each in different ways. You know, this past year I really struggled with passing my licensing exam. It's hard, fyi anybody considering becoming a psychologist. The licensing exam is outrageous.

Christina McKelvy: 19:18

In Arizona especially.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 19:21

Well, they've loosened it since then. Yes, since you and I spoke, they changed their requirements. It was a two, a two exam process and for now it's just a one exam process, but nationally I think in 2026, they're looking at making it a two part. But yeah, four years of grad school, a dissertation and internship and commuting over a hundred let's see, Not over a hundred, because it's a hundred miles each way. So, you know, maybe closer to 500 to a thousand miles each week. So much easier than trying to pass this exam.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 19:53

But what I, what I so appreciated was, you know, when I didn't pass it the second time, each of my kids responded to me in a way that was so them and so me. You know that just those moments made me feel seen, appreciated and encouraged and friends. Just I, like I said, I have great people. I could go on for days about this. I have family, I'm super close to my family, I have a very large family and all of them get me at a different level. I'm kind of the. I'm out there for my family, you know, but they all see me and appreciate me and love me. So I feel like I had a really good blueprint for what being allowed to be authentic looks like.

Christina McKelvy: 20:36

And good baseline. Yeah, and so it sounds. It sounds like your community, your connectedness to others helped you find that motivation to and that resilience to move forward you know through for your career, to get through the test, licensing and the testing yeah, like goes back to that human basic need of being connected.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 21:03

Yes, I mean definitely definitely yeah, community is important. It is important. This is why I love that you're doing this, so that you can spread and bring hope, messages of hope and resilience to people, that you can build a community where people feel seen and heard and like you're not in this alone. You know, even if we're not able to meet face to face, you know with each of the people that you bring on here that they can hear the stories that are shared and know that they're just, they're not alone. We're in this together.

Christina McKelvy: 21:37

Yeah, yeah it's. I think that's something that a lot of people are starting to realize. That community is is kind of like the root, you know, of a lot of things for us and you know in the US we're not very, not necessarily, it's not our default.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 21:57

You know the whole being independent and your bootstraps is the default Very individualistic, collectiveist cultures have a much better handle on what community can look like and the value of community. And I was just reading a book the other day that we're talking about parenting. You know how it looked decades and centuries ago, how we were never meant to do this thing alone, that it really does take so many people. You know there's the. I appreciate if it takes a village to raise a child and I felt that was a student.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 22:29

Yeah, it's not just to raise a student or a person or a parent or take so many people to pour into the success. Like you know, when you see somebody who's successful, it wasn't just their perseverance or dream or goal or vision or whatever that had a large part to do with that. I mean you have to, as an individual, have your own motivation and desires, but also the people who support you, their study after study after study. That shows how important social support is to an individual in terms of growth, thriving and even healing. You know those who have chronic illness the better their community, the more likely they are to have a positive outlook on their prognosis and a much faster recovery.

Christina McKelvy: 23:13

Let's focus in on that. Yeah, tell me a little bit more about you. Know that? I think there's research behind that too right.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 23:20

Yeah, there's a bunch of research behind that and I, you know, didn't think to pull up articles or anything, so I can't go into specific.

Christina McKelvy: 23:25

I didn't ask you to.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 23:26

It's okay. Yeah, but that was actually part of my dissertation was talking about the different. Well, it was pretty vast. I'm not going to go into all of that, but a piece of that was the importance of social support and connection. So, whether it's a student trying to complete an education, whether it's somebody who's received a cancer diagnosis, whether it's, you know, a family who has lost loved one, the more people that rally around to support them, to fill in the gaps, whether it's bringing meals or providing childcare or cleaning the house or sending a funny meme, or taking somebody out to the movies or having delivery, the better the outcomes for the individual. And I think that's why, at least with some of my clients, they've been drawn to their faith communities, because some of these faith communities do that really, really well. They surround and support the people within their congregation, which is also, on the other hand, why it can be so traumatizing when they're hurt by somebody within their faith community.

Christina McKelvy: 24:35

So you know there's, or to come out too.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 24:38

Yes, especially for you know, if we're going back to our LGBTQ community, they felt loved and supported by their faith family, their faith-based family, and then, when they come out and they're no longer welcome or seen or valued, or they're looked at as well, this is a phase or you're too young to make that decision or they're somehow othered that can be really, really traumatizing. You know, rather than like, this is, you know, this is who they are and this is their experience. So, anyway, community is super important.

Christina McKelvy: 25:12

Yeah, sounds like that's a really good focus, that community support. So there's some really you know great people out there that are starting these communities online non-wells with the Fuluhuman Collective, where the focus is on community, and I think our generation and the generations below us are really recognizing that.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 25:38

Yeah, and the importance of being seen. A few summers ago, when we were really struggling as a nation to wrap our minds around what race meant and what it meant to be a person of color, we were hearing a lot more about being well represented in media and in organizations and in leadership, and I mean that's part of it is recognizing that our communities look different, we have different values and different histories, and it's that that's what America was founded on, right, like the idea that we could all just come here and live peaceably together, and we've found that to be much more challenging than the beautiful ideal that it was. But does it have to be? Does it have to be so hard to be different? I don't. I don't think it does have to be as hard as we make it sometimes, but that representation and the representation and that ability to be able to see yourself in some way reflected in the people around you is very validating and very healing and an important part of the human experience.

Christina McKelvy: 26:50

Yeah, and I think it's being seen, being represented, but then also being understood. Yes, having like understanding where that person's story comes from, understanding their story. In you know a lot of communities, the Black Indigenous community especially. You know there's a lot of transgenerational trauma, intergenerational trauma, and understanding that trauma and understanding how it can affect somebody and someone's experience I think helps with that being heard.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 27:26

Yes, definitely I think. You know, as you're talking about that, I was thinking about the work that I do with some of well with I was going to see teens, but it's really everybody. You know people there are camps in terms of, like, the people who appreciate cognitive behavioral therapy and those who do not appreciate cognitive behavioral therapy.

Christina McKelvy: 27:48

I'm in the middle.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 27:48

I'm in the middle, I do it but yeah, because I'm the type of person who enjoys a good buffet, I'm going to pick and choose what I appreciate about all the things like. I'm there with you, you're eclectic, eclectic, eclectic, which is really taboo, I know I do not like to say that you are eclectic, but Whatever, whatever it's on my website.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 28:08

And which I love. I love because we know what that means it's you are not pigeonholed into one value system or belief and you could, at any given point that's what it means to be person-centered. At any given point in time, you go aha, this from this orientation works to meet your needs. So what I like about CBT is that it gives the opportunity to Encourage people to understand how that generational trauma or how somebody's lived experience can impact the lens that they're viewing life through right this minute. So you know, you have two people live through a car accident, for example, and one walks away fine. You know rollover, nobody is majorly injured. One person walks away fine and feels okay and can get in the car the next day and the other person goes uh-uh, I might not have an injury, but I'm not getting back into that car. So how have their life experiences up until that point in time impacted the way that they view the situation and how does living through that situation impact them moving forward?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 29:18

So you know, another piece of CBT is challenging those assumptions and the way that we interpret information. One of the questions I ask a lot is what are you making up about that You're in this situation? Somebody did this thing to you or said this thing to you. What story are you spinning in your head about that and how do you know and how is that helpful and how else could we view the situation and how can we ask questions or engage with the person in a way that gets us to the truth? So we're not just walking around making up stories about people all the time. You know, and just those simple practices can reduce your stress and anxiety so much. Yeah, that felt like a bit of a tangent, but here we are. No, that's okay.

Christina McKelvy: 30:01

Good tangent, you know, and drawing it back to that community. You know someone that's gone into using the car accident example, someone that was in a car accident and they're struggling to get back into that car. If we draw back to the importance of community connection, how could that help them move forward and find resilience? Yes, and healing, mm? Hmm, definitely. And what does that look like? Does that mean, you know, there's a support, supporting network on letting them learn how to get back into a car right and encouraging them?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 30:34

Right, and how many of us have ever responded well, to stop being a baby, suck it up and just do it? Oh my goodness, none. We don't like that. We might just suck it up and do it, but is that our preference? You know, and I know a lot of people take issue with Well, we got it. You know, sometimes we just have to.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 30:54

They take issue with the, the gentle approach which I get. It's not for everybody, but you know, I'll often say I have cultivated a a gentle, self compassionate inner voice that sometimes gives me a little bit more grace and space to kind of process things. And then I have the one that's like Andrea, just knock it off and do it. Okay, you've tried being gentle. You've tried, you've given yourself time. It's not working for you. So you have a decision to make either get in the car or go get some therapy to help you get in the car, because this is not sustainable for you. You know, and some sometimes I need a little bit of push, but having an outside person look at me and tell me to suck it up is not going to fly. It's not going to work for me.

Christina McKelvy: 31:36

Yeah, and so language that we use.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 31:39

Yeah, language is so important, yeah.

Christina McKelvy: 31:42

And we miss that. Yeah, so you suck it up. I mean that's harsh.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 31:48

Mm-hmm, especially for therapists. We don't talk like that.

Christina McKelvy: 31:53

Nope, maybe having a direct approach, but yeah, there's a lot to think about. I think, therapy, especially as individual therapists, we're not working with or at least I work with children and that brings in parents sometimes, but for individual work I think we sometimes forget that community approach. So I'm really happy to hear that that's such a huge focus for you on that community, having connection, being authentic, allowing people to be heard and seen, and again, that goes back to the essence of being human. It does Tell me a little bit about your own experience in school, because, going back to you said something earlier about as a student, you needed a lot of support and that push and there was the insight that was found Like, ok, my family and my friends are here to support me. Tell me a little bit more about that journey. It was as a student, since you are a baby therapist, it wasn't that long ago, right?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 33:05

Yeah, I think I finished up my last class three years ago, which has gone so fast.

Christina McKelvy: 33:11

That's a long time ago.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 33:12

It does feel like a long time ago, I know. So then, when you think about finishing your last class and then going on internship and then getting licensed, the amount of time that goes in between those things, it is not a quick thing. Ok, so I was older, obviously a nontraditional student. I had been working with students in academic advising, helping them plan out their educational careers, and there was something I really just enjoyed about digging in and looking at my options and what sounds appealing and how do the course descriptions resonate.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 33:45

I would encourage them to sit with those a little bit when they would come in confused, and I often got students who were in those big life transitions they're marriage-ended, they just got done with chemo, they have finished their military commitment, things along those lines and I remember once the person who did the scheduling saying if you're the ones that feel like they need a little bit of extra care, you're really good at giving them extra care, extra care, extra care.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 34:19

They just need a gentle approach, which I thought what a kind thing to say. And so what I found, though, over time, is that I loved those students that needed just a little bit of extra time, who were feeling inadequate because their memory wasn't as good or because they were going to be twice as old as the people in their classes and to be able to normalize that for them and validate their concerns, but also let them know how people can, how we help them to be resilient, the resources that we had available. I've always loved connecting people to resources Like here's your community. Again, this turned into a theme that I didn't even know I was going to bring it to the table, but yeah, it's a reoccurring connecting the community.

Christina McKelvy: 35:04

Here we go, here we go.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 35:06

I found my niche apparently through the beauty of this podcast. I've been struggling with it all year. I just needed to sit here with you. This is why you're an incredible therapist.

Christina McKelvy: 35:18

This is not therapy. Fyi.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 35:20

FYI, it is not Disclaimer. You're very good at the question asking. I try, so yeah. So after a while of that, I came to a place where I had a master's degree in psychology. I needed that to be able to do that job. And it was like, ok, well, I love the therapy part of this, but I'm not qualified to do that ethically. So what do I do? Do I get another master's degree in counseling or do I go get a doctorate in psychology? And I decided they were both going to take the same amount of time.

Christina McKelvy: 35:52

People don't realize that it's pretty similar in time, yeah time.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 35:56

So why would I not get a terminal degree then? Which was the decision for me at that point in time? It's not the right decision for everyone. So my younger two my oldest had already been on his own for a while. My younger two children were still in high school and my husband was here, like everybody, was on board and supportive. It meant I would have to leave my full-time job and commute down to the valley to school a couple days a week and maybe stay the nights. And my oldest was living down in the valley at the time and so I was able to stay with him a few nights a week in his now wife.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 36:32

But people rallied together. My husband stepped up, the kids stepped up, family members. My brother and sister-in-law would call and say hey, we're down at mom and dad's, I've got a fire going, come on down, just like giving me opportunities for breaks. Or my sister would say let's go for a hike. Or another friend would offer to take care of something for me. Or just little pieces.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 36:57

I had friends that I met at school One, our first year there. She was like I have an extra room. You're commuting back and forth, do you want to just stay with me two nights a week. This was before my son and his wife moved down, and so even at school I had people taking care of me and looking out for me and we had free therapy available to us during that part of our tuition-covered free access to therapy. So my therapist was huge in my success, and Dr Cindy Rollins, who's a psychologist up here that I work very closely with. Even in the beginning, when I was doing the research of whether or not this is a career I would want to do, I reached out to her and was like, so tell me what it looks like to be a psychologist? And she told me. And then, when I needed practicum placement and was hoping to do that closer to home, she was like, yes, come work with me. So she's been huge. Our Granite Mountain Psychological Society community Every psychologist and counselor that I have met through that organization has been amazing and supportive in one way or another.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 38:04

So, yeah, there's no way. There's no way I could have done any of what I did without the support of literally every single person in my life my kids bringing me peanut butter cups or giving me a place to stay or taking me out to go through Dutch and grab a tea. Just, my daughter has become my biggest cheerleader At times. When I got in, she was dreaming of going to an Ivy League. I think she was dreaming of going to Juilliard for acting. And so when I got in, she goes mom, it's your Juilliard. And I was like it is. I mean, that was the first thing she said to me. I love that. I know, I love that.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 38:51

Yeah, so without those little tiny pieces, there's no way I could have done it. Everybody just really banded together and helped me out and kept the house running and brought me chocolate when I needed it and, yeah, it was really beautiful. So it allowed me to change career fields Like it felt like that was the midlife crisis, but it allowed me to pivot and go OK, what am I going to do next? In a way that feels good and authentic, and it took a group of people to really help with that.

Christina McKelvy: 39:24

Yeah, it makes sense that you're able to be authentic with your clients, especially when they're experiencing a transition or pivoting their life, because you were there.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 39:38

Yes, yeah, I've been there many, many, many, many, many, many times, and without the support of my family and friends and other clinicians and school buddies there's something about your school buddies that just yeah, without the support of all these people, there's no way it would have been 10 times harder, yeah, so bringing it back I guess that's what I try to bring to the therapy space, like, let me be part of your community, let me be part of the people who are on your team to help support you in whatever it is.

Christina McKelvy: 40:16

And it's such a different framework than what we were trained with. Like I was trained very person, senator Rogerian. However, I still feel that it was still very individualistic. We were the therapists were up here, but that's not true, right?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 40:35

No, I don't want to be up here. I mean. That's why I don't go by Dr Anna Bali. I could I have some clients. I'll joke with me. Don't try. Anna Bali, how are you doing today? Great, but that's why I don't. I mean, if that makes you comfortable, that's fine. But I'm Andrea, I'm just chilling right here with you.

Christina McKelvy: 40:51

You're connecting with them, you're being authentic.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 40:53

Yes.

Christina McKelvy: 40:54

And that makes them again feel safe enough to feel seen and heard. Yes, that's the hope.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 40:59

That's the hope. Of course, they're bringing in their own filters and lenses and ideas and expectations, and so sometimes we got to work through that. But yes, that's the hope is, I'm just here with you. That's the hope. Yeah.

Christina McKelvy: 41:15

And, with that being said, that's the hope. Where do you find your hope? Or what brings you hope? What brings me hope? Yeah, what brings you hope? Or where do you find your hope?

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 41:35

I think my relationships bring me hope. Stories of healing and resilience bring me hope. I'm a very glass half full person anyway, so I'm drawn toward optimism because it feels good. You know with the flip side to that is I can be very easily disappointed when things don't go the way that I hoped they did. But I also have this strong trust that, like something has always, I always figured something out, you know, up until this point in time. So, even if something didn't go the way that I wanted it to, I'm okay, you know, like it's fine. So again, I guess, yeah, I find hope in lots of different places. Yeah, we said relationships back to that community it does. Yeah, my relationships give me a lot of hope, a lot of encouragement, lots of love.

Christina McKelvy: 42:33

I'm.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 42:33

I realize that I have privilege in that area, that not everyone has a community who is who has the capacity to be able to support them, because it's not just having the community, it's also the quality of the community. So I'm fortunate to have people in my life that have the capacity to be able to support me in the way that I need to be supported. So, whether that's emotional health or emotional intelligence, how everyone refers to me, I'm fortunate to have people in my life that have the capacity to be able to support me in the way that I need to be supported. So, whether that's emotional health or emotional intelligence how everyone refer to it like I can share with them. I think maybe this is an important thing to know. It's that I'm not just expecting them to do the things. I'm able to clearly advocate and say this is what I need and they're able to answer the call, because it's not just about people coming and rescuing and supporting the way that you think they should and them knowing.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 43:22

We don't always know how to support the people in our lives. Sometimes we have to ask them what a support look like to you. How can I be supportive? Sometimes they don't know. On the flip side of that, we have to be willing, as people, to communicate. This is what support looks like to me in this moment. So, going back to my husband just giving me a hug he didn't know that he doesn't want to hug when he's upset that was like the last thing. Please do not come with intent feet of him when he's not feeling well, that's not what he wants, that's what I want. And he didn't know that until I shared that with him. Unfortunately, that was very, very early on in our marriage. I was like, okay, when I look like this is what needs to happen, and he goes, got it, and he's. He's never forgotten it. You know, okay, I see that it's an equation. Andrea looks this way. This is how she needs me to show up, and he does, without fail every time. So communication is important.

Christina McKelvy: 44:30

And you mentioned that you're very fortunate with you know having that community and not everyone does, but it sounds like as a therapist, you are providing again that space in that community to advocate, to be one of the advocates, yeah, for your clients and, you know, helping them connect them to resources and supports, and so, and by having that glass half full, you can also. I think that can be contagious.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 44:59

It's the modeling. I think there was something you said earlier that made me think of that like modeling how to show up in the therapeutic space. I feel like that's one of the roles as a therapist is to model. Model what it looks like, whatever it is, and I might I might not know, but I sure can model authenticity. I know what that looks like. I know what it feels like to be genuine and true and to be able to articulate my values, which may be different from the person that I'm sitting with, but if I can help them articulate their values, then that can become an important component for them. Yeah, but yeah, modeling self advocacy I do that a lot.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 45:39

What does that look like? How, what would you need to say? What would it feel like if you did it a little bit differently? How, how can you set boundaries in a way that has your needs met while still you know a lot of? A lot of people feel challenged by setting boundaries because it's uncomfortable or they don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. And you can set boundaries without hurting feelings. Definitely, you can be, you can speak up for what you need without it being harsh. So cover a lot of ground, kristi.

Christina McKelvy: 46:12

We have. We have I mean again, it's all connected. You're able to be honest and help them, you know, set boundaries and provide feedback, because they feel safe, because you're authentic and they're able to be authentic, and it's that community, you know. So it's all tied back to connectedness and that is what it means to be human.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 46:32

Yes, that is exactly what it means to be human. Yeah, yeah.

Christina McKelvy: 46:36

Well, andrea, thank you so much for being here and you know, sharing your insights and what, what brings you hope and where you found your resilience through your career, but not just your career, but also just life and again circling it back to being human. So, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Andrea Annibale: 46:52

Yes, thank you so much for having me, yeah.