Christina McKelvy: 0:13

Welcome to Obology. I'm your host, christina McKelvie. Today we speak with Lillian Isabella. Lillian is a Cuban-American playwright and actor. She's also the first known playwright with the rare disorder Fennecadenaria, also known as PKU. I talked to Lillian about her newest play, primordial. This play premieres in February at the Tank in New York City. I encourage you to go check it out if you're in the city. This play is a documentary play based on her diverse interviews of birthing persons. We explored the ongoing themes of hope and resilience that someone who gives birth experiences, but we also talked about the impact that theater can have to enact change. You're not going to want to miss this interview. We're going to be right back. Welcome to Obology stories of hope, healing and resilience. I'm your host, christina McKelvie. Today we're going to be speaking with Lillian Isabella. How are you doing? I'm doing well, thank you for having me. So how are you doing today?

Lillian Isabella: 1:28

I'm doing well. I'm doing well here in New York City. It's a beautiful night.

Christina McKelvy: 1:35

I know I'm across the country from you and it's not night yet, but that sounds nice. It sounds lovely. It's a dream for me to get out to New York one of these days. I was close. I've been all the way up to Maryland North Maryland so that's the furthest east. Yeah, so I follow you on Instagram and I know your boyfriend, Rob. I interviewed him for a podcast a few episodes ago for his movie, and he mentioned that you have a play that you're promoting or you're creating. You're the playwright. Tell me a little bit about that play.

Lillian Isabella: 2:10

Yeah, absolutely yeah, and I heard very good things from Rob, so I'm excited to chat with you. Thank you. The play is called Primordial and it's a verbatim documentary theater play. So do you know?

Christina McKelvy: 2:26

what documentary theater is. I have no idea and I feel like I'm going to this can be my new obsession, after you explain what it is, because they look documentaries.

Lillian Isabella: 2:39

It's like a niche genre of theater, so not a lot of people know what it is, but it is basically documentary based theater. So there's a few different forms that it can take. The one that I practice is verbatim, meaning I interview people and then I transcribe their interviews and then I weave those that text into a theatrical experience. So all of the words in the play are from the people I interviewed and then I just sort of creatively arranged them while honoring the message, and I don't change the order or change what they were intending to say, but I just put them in conversation with each other. So Primordial specifically is about pregnancy and childbirth. So I interviewed many, many, many people about their experiences with pregnancy and childbirth and then I turned over a thousand pages of transcription from my interviews with them into a 50 page play which runs about an hour and 15 minutes or so.

Christina McKelvy: 3:38

Cool An hour and 15 minutes. So these are interviews that you conducted with individuals, again about the theme of pregnancy and childbirth, and transcribe that. And now it's a play, so you know two people talking or acting it out. Tell me more about that process, because it sounds like it would be long.

Lillian Isabella: 3:56

Yeah, I've been working on the play for four years now. For me personally, it's the longest I've ever worked on anything in my life, and so, yeah, it's been a long process and the way that I envision it, it's going to be going up at the tank in New York City in February 2024. So February 1st to February 25th at the tank and it's going to. The plan is for there to be five actors and there's 30 characters that are represented in the play, so each actor is going to play like five to seven different people throughout the course of the play.

Christina McKelvy: 4:31

Okay, okay. So, and is the? Is the tank theater is modeled off as like a community theater, or is it? How's that set up?

Lillian Isabella: 4:40

Yeah, the tank is an off off Broadway space, so a lot of people don't know the difference. I learned it. I went to NYU Tisch School of the Arts and I majored in acting and that was where I learned the difference between Broadway off off Broadway. So the difference is literally the number of seats. So the, the theater space that we're going to be in, has 98 seats in it, and and and off Broadway is 99 seats or above to a certain point. So we are away from off Broadway and there's a lot of reasons to do that, one of which is like budgetary. So the kind of contracts that you would do with actors is different if you're in like an off off Broadway or an off Broadway house and there's a lot of different rules and things that go along with the different types of houses and the contracts that happen. But it's an amazing locations 36th Street and 8th Avenue, so it's just like a few blocks away from Times Square and it's very much in the theater district in the theater world.

Lillian Isabella: 5:43

So, it's going to be and the tank itself produces. So, like so many artists and projects come through the tank every year, like thousands of artists, and they have a certain small, limited number of core productions, so things that they co produce, and this play is their, one of their first for the new year, and so it's very exciting to have that drive and that support and to be accepted in that way as a co production is like a really big deal and I'm so thrilled, I'm so excited that that's happening.

Christina McKelvy: 6:19

I'm excited for you. That's a big deal going from, and is this your first play that you've written.

Lillian Isabella: 6:24

My second. So it's my second full length play. So my first one, and it includes a curse word, I'm not sure if I can you, can it?

Christina McKelvy: 6:35

there's no rating.

Lillian Isabella: 6:38

So my first place called how we love slash fuck. Okay, it went up at Cherry Lane Theater in 2019. So right before the pandemic, the fall of 2019. And it was also documentary theater, interviewed many, many different people about their women, about their experiences with sexuality and intimacy, and then I turned that into a play, and so that was my first one that went up, and then this is the second full length one, and how?

Christina McKelvy: 7:04

so you said, documentary theater is very niche and so it's not. There's not a lot out there. What would I get from going to maybe specifically Primordial but a documentary type theater versus a documentary on TV or a movie?

Lillian Isabella: 7:23

Yeah, well, I'll point to one of my absolute favorite documentary theater artists. You may have heard of her. Her name is Anna DeVier Smith. She is a complete badass and what she does is she focuses and this is a lot of documentary theater focuses on topics that are kind of rubbing up against the grain of what is normal in society, government and culture. So it's often challenging norms. It's often centering the civilian or the person who is living within the society and kind of highlighting and amplifying their voice and questioning why the status quo is the status quo. So Anna DeVier Smith, her style is very much she does verbatim theater, where she uses their words and plays. She also acts as them, which I've done in the past. But in this new play, primordial, I'm not doing that because I wanted to just be the playwright and just kind of experience it as the playwright only, not also a performer. But Anna DeVier Smith will embody her characters and then she'll expose kind of patterns or assumptions or like the way things have been structurally set up, that and invite questions.

Lillian Isabella: 8:43

So documentary theater, you asked like how is it different than watching a documentary film? I think one of the biggest ways it's different is that you have bodies in space bringing these stories to life and you're listening to real people's experiences. So there's an element of trust that comes into play, that you believe that the documentarian, the documentary theater maker, has done justice by the people that they've interviewed and is accurately representing what they were intending to say. And I think that's the clarity between documentary film and documentary theater. But there's less this is an interesting thing for me to say. I almost feel like there's less artifice maybe with theater than there is with film, because with documentary film you can kind of like shape narratives or it's a complicated question what you've asked.

Lillian Isabella: 9:35

It's a complicated question, but I think there's something about theater where you're in the space together and you're feeling like there's other bodies, they're channeling these stories and you're kind of witnessing it firsthand, even though it's not firsthand, it's like secondhand, but it's still. There's some magic in having a body share a story. And to there's something else. That's a really cool thing and I can't remember exactly who said it, but it's a very famous theater essayist, theater person, and he says that when we go to the theater and we're watching something in the theater, the audience's heartbeat sink, so your heart is at the same time when you're watching something in the theater, and I think that that's a very magical, beautiful thing.

Christina McKelvy: 10:24

So your heartbeat is sinking together, it's that you're all connected and you're witnessing, like I said, this actor in the space telling this story. That is real, and so I'm, you know, depending on how well the actor acts that emotion that plays into it, and then the audience is also feeling that emotion, that empathy that's coming from the actor and it's just like real stories.

Lillian Isabella: 10:51

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's something about theater, I think, where you can't look away, like when you're watching a movie, or especially if you're watching it at home, right, like in this movie theater, it's a little different, but you can go to your phone or you can hit pause or you can walk away, and there's something about when you're in the theater space, you just you really are being asked to put aside an hour and 15 minutes of your time, say, to witness this story and to be present with a group of people witnessing the story and you feel their immediate reactions and you feel the energy of the performer and there's like a transmission that happens that is more visceral, I think.

Christina McKelvy: 11:32

Yeah, it's making me excited, like go down to my local playhouse.

Lillian Isabella: 11:39

Or local theater.

Christina McKelvy: 11:40

Yes, I definitely want to. I saw a really lovely play, jane Eyre at the Yavapai College in Prescott you say Prescott here, not Prescott, and it was just. It was magnificent and you're right, you know, there was that energy and then when the person was singing, you just felt that emotion Cause you were there that the screen is gone.

Lillian Isabella: 12:03

I love that the screen is gone. That's such a beautiful way to put it. Yeah, I am my choreographer, so we have a choreographer and a director and we just had our first creative meeting for the play this past Monday. So we're starting to throw around ideas and getting ready to put out a casting notice for actors. That's very much the phase of the production that we're in.

Lillian Isabella: 12:28

Okay, and the choreographer said to me she was reading a certain scene in the play when everyone was, all the characters were getting ready to go into labor, and she said she started to feel anxious and she was like whoa, I don't know, I don't know if I can do this, I don't know if I can, like you know, be involved with this play because this is really intense. And then she said she made it through that scene to the next moment and she was like, oh no, I absolutely, you know. Like that she realized the feeling, cause she's been pregnant and given birth. So has my director, my director's been pregnant and given birth? I've never been pregnant and I've never given birth, so I'm approaching it very much from the lens of somebody who's investigating, who hasn't had that experience, so I also don't have like a predisposed sense of what it should be or could be or was, because I'd have never experienced it.

Lillian Isabella: 13:14

But my choreographer said she realized what was happening to her when she was reading. That was, she was having the memory, like she was having that physical memory and that feeling of the panic and the like, the, the sensation you get when you're about to go into labor and start pushing. It's very heightened, it's very amped. And then she was like that is a beautiful thing for an audience to all collectively feel together is this sense of? Oh my God, it's about to start, you know.

Christina McKelvy: 13:40

Inticipatory anxiety altogether.

Lillian Isabella: 13:43

Yes, exactly Like, and to the reason that I created this play is because I wanted to. It's kind of like a love letter to my mom and you know she told my, my sister and I our birth stories, how we came to be quite a bit from the time when we were like young, you know. And so when you go out in the world, nobody talks about birth Like you don't talk about the experience of being pregnant or being born.

Lillian Isabella: 14:07

It's like a secret or it's something you don't. A lot of the people I talked to said that they didn't feel like anyone wanted to talk to them about their experience at all. Nobody asked them questions and they felt really frustrated because they'd gone through this completely life-changing experience.

Christina McKelvy: 14:20

And then crickets.

Lillian Isabella: 14:22

like nobody acknowledged that it happened, that it was epic, nothing, they didn't ask them questions. So my goal with this play is to literally put birthing stories center stage. So ask us to listen and to talk about it and to feel and to acknowledge and to witness this like freaking, transformative event that is happening all the time. Many people are born every single year.

Christina McKelvy: 14:48

No way, really. What is it? I wonder if it's because women are giving birth. I wonder if that's why.

Lillian Isabella: 15:02

Yeah, so a lot of you know a lot of things that affect the female body. We've all talked about a lot and not prioritized and not centered. And I also, you know, through this play I also spoke with a trans man and a non-binary person. Both came together as well.

Lillian Isabella: 15:20

It's this sense of like marginalized bodies. It happens to people who have marginalized bodies and marginalized experiences, and I don't understand completely why it's marginalized when, like half the population, gives birth, it's not a marginal thing. And every single person on the planet, the one thing we have in common is that we were born.

Christina McKelvy: 15:43

Yeah.

Lillian Isabella: 15:44

Like it's so obvious to me, Like we all were born. It is why the heck is it not the center of how we structure society? Or like try and understand society. It's like magical, it's how we all came to be. You know what?

Christina McKelvy: 15:58

would that look like if we were to, you know, focus on being born, because, you're right, it's marginalized bodies are. It's pushed to the side and those with female reproductive organs that can give birth or birthed people are pushed to the side. But it's something that we're all like. You said, we're all born, every single one. I don't know one person not born Possible? Yeah, maybe I mean. And so what's society look like if we were to be like oh, this is kind of important, we need a structure society around this very, very important thing.

Lillian Isabella: 16:37

Yeah, I mean I. So I always say I'm not an expert in this area, like I'm not a dual, not a midwife, I'm not, I'm not a politician, I'm not any of these things. And so I'm a playwright and I'm creating this and trying to explore, like, what would it look like, creatively right, if we were to center this and to talk about it? I think it would be humbling, I think it would be encouraging of conversation and like with you know.

Lillian Isabella: 17:03

One early feedback I got from staged readings of the play is that people immediately wanted to call their mom, like after they saw the play, and just say like thank you, and just say I love you. I think we'd have more appreciation and honoring of the people who give birth to us, whether they are our mom or they don't. They don't, they don't identify as our mom, but just you know the people who are with us, and I think it would be a society that was more respectful, that was more caring you know like we would have maternal, we would have like better pregnancy leave, like for people after they've given birth.

Lillian Isabella: 17:43

We wouldn't expect them to bounce back right away, because we would have an understanding of the trauma that can be the experience of birth and, like really acknowledged, we pretend, I think that birth is something like I don't know what. What do we pretend birth is like? Just like something like I did my taxes, I gave birth today. I mean like what it's such a different thing it's like, and I think if we knew that and we talked about it, we would honor birthing bodies more and we would treat people with more respect and also maybe we would love each other more. I don't know, is this too wishy, wishy, washy, but like we would care, we all you know that's such a precious act and we were all part of it.

Christina McKelvy: 18:27

Yeah, we're all like you said. Everyone has been born and I think it would also give great. It seems like this play would give great perspective for those of the excited on children either I've never given birth, you know what it's like and help with the empathy building 100%, yeah, 100%.

Lillian Isabella: 18:45

And I think this play it's going to need to come with a big trigger warning, because there are a lot and there's a trigger warning on the podcast episode too but there's just so much that can happen also that's disturbing or traumatic, and there's also so much joy and delight. That can happen too. But there are a lot of experiences that we cast judgment on or that we try and make political policies on that we're not attempting to understand from a personal place or from an empathetic place. And so, to your point, I think if we just allow people to talk about it and we just listen and we take it as their personal story rather than like a political statement that they're trying to make, that it will open the door for, like, increased understanding and compassion in the way that we govern and the way that we like talk to each other and about each other.

Christina McKelvy: 19:37

Yeah, you mentioned that this story was a love letter to your mom. Tell me more about, like, that connection you know with, maybe, your own story of being born, or you know how it affected or impacted you? You know to re-understand your story.

Lillian Isabella: 19:54

Yeah, so my mom's story is in my play. I interviewed her and she's one of the 30-something people whose stories are there. I interviewed way more than 30 people, but I just got 30 stories in there. How many people did you interview? I interviewed like about 50 people.

Christina McKelvy: 20:11

Wow, that is awesome. Yeah, that is so cool. I'm just like really enthralled with this type of play. That's so cool. So you interviewed your mom.

Lillian Isabella: 20:22

I interviewed my mom and her stories in there, and you know, one of the things that affected her story deeply was she enjoyed being pregnant very much. She didn't have health insurance and she was poor. At the time she was working at a laboratory as a scientist, so she was getting her PhD in genetics and she didn't have. They barely pay you anything as a scientist. When you're in training it's like a piton. And so she didn't have a lot of money and she didn't have a doctor. She went to a health clinic, which is like a clinic for poor people to help them out, and then when she was in labor she came into the hospital as essentially like someone off the street, Like she didn't have a connection to anyone in the hospital. She didn't have a preset doctor or anything like that. So it was hard for her to navigate. You know, when she needed painkillers or when she needed extra support, they refused to help her.

Lillian Isabella: 21:20

They refused to pay in medication because she didn't have health insurance and so she wouldn't be able to pay for it, and so it was an antagonistic relationship in that way, and you know, for her it was like a difficult experience to have that happen. And then she said when I was born, you know that there was a lot of joy and it like made everything else worth it right, because she got to hold me and she felt so happy. But that dichotomy of not feeling hurt and not feeling taken care of when you're at your most vulnerable, when you're experiencing like one of the most difficult things that the human body can possibly do one of the most miraculous things that the human body could possibly do, in my opinion and to not have support, you know, is disturbing.

Christina McKelvy: 22:00

So yeah, I'll go ahead.

Lillian Isabella: 22:04

But I really value like my relationship with my mom is is informs a lot of my art, because I grew up in a matriarchy, so it was me, my mom and my sister. We didn't have, like you know, a father figure in the house and so I grew up in a world where women my mom, myself, my sister we were prioritized, we were the center of things, we were our stories, our stories, we're the central narrative. And then I went out into the world and it's like surprise, like that's not the way things operate. We're in a patriarchal, yeah opposite.

Lillian Isabella: 22:42

Yeah, you know you get kind of labeled as a feminist because the way I grew up was at odds with the way society was set up and I was like, okay, yes, sure, I'll take on that, you know whatever.

Lillian Isabella: 22:52

But for me it's more like didn't make sense, and so I'm always, with my art, trying to question and navigate and understand how things could, how think, why things were the way they were for my mom and and how matriarchy is in conversation with and how can it be in you know, whatever that kind of thing. So it's just exploration to upload it to my mom, in the sense also of you know, the feminine finding their footing and thriving, and there's so much more complicated way of understanding it now than I think there was 20 years ago, culturally right, like just women who give birth, there's all sorts of identities that give birth, and so creating this play has been a learning journey in that as well, like it's not just the feminine or the female, there's all sorts of complicated, layered dynamics within a patriarchy that are not understood, that are not centered and all the stuff.

Christina McKelvy: 23:44

So and, like you mentioned, with your, you know you interviewed some of those non binary and trans person as well and that you know their experience and their bodies were marginalized. And what did you learn through that experience as well?

Lillian Isabella: 24:03

Yeah, I mean, I think so. I told one of my friends like I'm trying to avoid this play becoming political, like I don't really I don't want to make people feel angry and I don't want to make people but I'm ultimately not in control of how people feel after they watch the play. But I've had in some outreach I've had people express anger to me because I use the term birthing people and they're like how could you say that anyone but a woman gives birth? Only women give birth.

Lillian Isabella: 24:34

And I'm like I don't argue with them, but it's an inaccurate statement and I, like part of the process of creating this play, has been educating myself on, like you know, terminology and things that are out there and realities of people who are not talked about. Trans men have been giving birth for decades, like it's a thing that's been happening for a very long time, and so it's just like you know, I think people get used to whatever their silo is and whatever their circle or their bubble is, and it's like you know there's more to it than that and learning it's been a learning process for me as well, so, yeah, and I'm curious, like the resilience those individuals interviewed probably had, or other individuals as well that you interviewed.

Lillian Isabella: 25:16

Yeah, absolutely, and you know a lot of resilience and you know the non binary person that I interviewed. You know their, their stories in the play and one of the things they talked about is that they were very frustrated when they were pregnant because people would look at them as if they had the gift of life and they're like stop it. Like other, like other people would look at them and, like you know, everything was in pink, all the things that they were gendered, so gendered and so, so annoyed because the world was relating to them as a woman and they did not identify as a woman. They identify as a non binary person and so it was like very annoying and they had some body dysmorphia because their breast tissue is starting to come back and all of these things that were going on.

Lillian Isabella: 25:58

So it was a very challenging like negotiating that transition and that experience was very different for them than for other people. And so and something that I always say, like I said earlier in our interview, but I'm not an expert in this area and so much. But like one thing I'm trying to do is is is I'm actively scheduling speakers, guest speakers for Q and a talkbacks after the shows. Oh, that's fabulous, yeah, and I'm trying to. I'm centering as much as possible the people who are experts. So like organization support groups for, you know, loss, so sometimes when someone goes into labor, trigger warning, right, they they'll lose their baby or you know, they'll have a miscarriage or all of these things, and so I'm having like I have a support group that's going to speak to loss and then I have another support group that's going to speak to, like you know, building.

Lillian Isabella: 26:52

You know the centering healthcare Institute came on as a sponsor of the play and they're an incredible organization that's shifting the way prenatal care is approached for birthing people, so that they create like groups of people that follow, groups of pregnant people that follow the journey together and they support each other throughout and they came on as a sponsor and they're going to help with the talk back and all the stuff. So I'm trying to, as much as possible, center the people who are the experts afterwards, connect people with resources, because I think theater is also its most powerful when it's connected with civic action of some sort, like you know, I don't know about that theater being the most powerful when it's connected to civic action.

Christina McKelvy: 27:31

I it's so cool to hear like that statement.

Lillian Isabella: 27:35

That's cool.

Lillian Isabella: 27:36

Yeah, I think, like you know, you go to the theater, it has the potential to really rouse you, to excite just you, to make you feel something, to shake you out of whatever your normal day-to-day pattern is.

Lillian Isabella: 27:48

And I think sometimes somebody might want to be able to take action or do something with that and so, and also sometimes somebody might be having an experience, or they might have a loved one who is experiencing loss, for example, or who is wondering if they should get a midwife or a doula, and so knowing that there's an organization out there to support them, that exists, that's doing this work, there are, there are tons of organizations dedicated to maternal health and to all of these things, and so civic action to me means connecting people with resources and avenues for expression that would be helpful for them, and to let them know that they're not alone and to plug them into community, because there's so much community and theater in itself is a community and builds community, and so you know, just networking, like connecting all of the networks together, and, you know, having them feed each other, kind of.

Christina McKelvy: 28:36

Theater helps increase the empathy. You're in community with each other, and then you have these resources at the end and mentioned, like the support groups you know, with different topics and themes. Yes yeah, and how is this similar? Similarly set up as I can't speak, but is this very similar to your last play? Did your last play follow a similar framework with, like those resources and stuff like that, or?

Lillian Isabella: 29:01

A little bit. This one's different. I think the last topic was a little more controversial, so the last play was a response to the Me Too movement.

Lillian Isabella: 29:14

So that was extremely important and it brought a lot of vital things to light. I was utterly shocked that men had no idea that this was happening, because, growing up again in a female household, I heard stories from family members of abuse and sexual all these things happening, and so for me I was like, oh yep, this is the way it is in the world and you have to be careful as a woman, right? So the Me Too movement was essential, but it was also very it talked about a lot of traumatizing things, and so it made me question. Like you know, sex is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be something that we enjoy. So what does it look like enjoying it?

Lillian Isabella: 29:50

And I had one Q and A talk back for this, for that show, and it was very successful. We sold out that night and, yeah, we had four guest speakers, two men and two women, who were specialized in sexuality and in like intimacy and all this stuff, and so we had that one talk back and went really well, and that gave me the idea for this one to try and schedule a few of them, because it led to us selling out and to people having a robust conversation after the play, so it felt really good.

Christina McKelvy: 30:18

Yeah, Having like so that support and with the different themes, because it sounds like there's probably you probably heard all sorts of stories during your interviews. Yeah, yeah, and that spectrum, like you know for your current play, you know Primordial, the spectrum of stories you have lost. You mentioned stories of loss and story. You know stories of typical birth, whatever that looks like, looks like birth with disabilities. They sounds like you have kind of the whole gamut there.

Lillian Isabella: 30:57

Yes, yeah, we do. And there's a story of somebody who was a quadriplegic, who gave birth to twins. Wow, yeah, we're just trying to cover as many possible angles as I could and, knowing that, like a diverse range of age, ethnicity, gender identity, physical ability, just as much diversity as I could get, knowing that it's impossible for me to completely like get the entirety of all the experiences, everyone's like, oh my gosh, there's this story that I didn't get in, or this experience I'm like, at a certain point, I need to, yeah, like, this is what it is and it's not everything, but it's a good attempt at all of it.

Christina McKelvy: 31:36

Was that the trash shoot? Yeah, that was.

Lillian Isabella: 31:40

I tried to speak louder.

Christina McKelvy: 31:44

Oh, man Trash shoots. That's so cool. I don't have one. I have to walk outside my door.

Lillian Isabella: 31:51

I'll give a little context in case that makes sense. It's fun. I live next to the trash shoot the whole building and there's 12 floors. Sometimes trash the come hurtling down. Then I also live right next door to a church. Every half hour there's church bells that go off. It's very New York City.

Christina McKelvy: 32:09

Sounds like a wonderful experience. Those of you that are not in New York, you're getting the New York experience vicariously right now.

Lillian Isabella: 32:15

That's right, we both go edit it out for you.

Christina McKelvy: 32:18

Yes, nope, it'll be the experience. Oh, what is that type of play? Immersion, yes, immersive experience, exactly. I think that's just really awesome, that the player creating is promoting awareness. It's showing the resilience birthing individuals go through and how they can bounce back after adversity. Like you said, you showed that whole gamut. What were some themes of hope that you saw with the play or the interviews?

Lillian Isabella: 32:51

Excuse me, that's a great question. I think some of the hopeful elements of it are some people really took their birthing experience into their own hands. So they really. They worked with a doula or they worked with a midwife, and those experiences tended to be more positive. They tended to feel more supported throughout the birth and they were able to carve out experiences for themselves that were flexible and adaptable to the emergent needs of the situation, but that also like took into account what, what would bring them joy, in a sense, like what would make them feel good.

Lillian Isabella: 33:35

There's one, there's one story in particular of this woman who she danced when she was in labor. And that helps because you're moving, you know like the baby is trying to make its way out of the birth canal and that means that there's gonna be like it's a small birth canal, the baby's way bigger than the birth canal, and so it's gonna be bumping up against your organs and it's gonna be trying to get out. And again, I'm not an expert in this right, I'm not a doctor, but generally so when you're dancing, it helps, like you're helping to move, you're helping the baby, it's like you and the baby are partners in trying to get the baby out of your womb and to being born, and also dancing, and also like physical touch from your partner, if you have a supportive relationship can allow, can allow endorphins to be released and it allows you to feel.

Lillian Isabella: 34:30

There was a woman who experienced ecstatic birth. So she actually had the feeling of like an orgasm while giving birth, where things were brighter, things were pleasurable, because she had, she was moving her body and she was helping get the baby out. So it was like a joyful, ecstatic experience and it was a lot quicker than than her. She also she gave birth four times, so each birth is a different experience. And she also had a birth where she was forced to, you know, like, lie down and it took a lot longer. It was very traumatic and disturbing. But this one was like a more ecstatic birthing dance experience and she started this whole company that it's called dancing for birth and it allows people to to dance and to get into the movement and support the rhythm of what their body feels and to get into that the good feeling. So that's one really joyful, hopeful experience.

Lillian Isabella: 35:21

And then there's another woman I talked to who's actually also a friend of mine, and she talked about hip no birthing. And so hip no birthing is practice ahead of time and you get your mind into a space where you're like breathing and you're focusing on visuals and you go to a place in your mind that helps you deal with the physical pain. And then there's the. You know you breathe in time with the contractions and it's a whole thing. And she also had a doula who was able to help her with that. But she really practiced ahead of time and was able to get in touch with more. You know, she said my friend says who did this? Who did this kind of hip? No birthing. She said you would never run a marathon without training. You would train for a marathon. And so she treated giving birth is like something she needed to train for, because it was gonna be a physical marathon. It was gonna be the most hardest thing she'd ever done physically. So for mentally, she got herself into a place where she would be able to have tools and have things that when she the day arrived, she would be prepared.

Christina McKelvy: 36:17

You know and so that, so that helped with.

Lillian Isabella: 36:22

You know, just, it sounds like that, even that resilience, like that bouncing back exactly, yeah, it helps her, helps her have a sense of control in a situation that is wild. It's just a completely you know. The name of the play is primordial because it's something that's been happening since the beginning of time is giving birth and it's a very wild and raw and natural thing, and so you know, it helps give a sense of control and also like preparedness for it, knowing that you don't know what's gonna happen in the moment, but you have to try and manage it.

Christina McKelvy: 36:53

So yeah, and society it doesn't always set up birthing persons with those tools to be able to prepare for birth. And again, because I think traditionally it's. You know, if men were giving birth it'd be different.

Lillian Isabella: 37:13

I'm not trying to get political either, but it's also yeah, and it's like there's a way, I believe, to talk about these things that is not political. You run into a problem if the only time you're talking about it is politically, because then you're never gonna get to solving and healing the wounds. You're gonna just be a trying to debate stuff, and it's not a debate like it's the end of the day, it's people's experiences, it's like lived stories or, I think, the most important thing. That's why I do documentary theater, because that's what I believe is the most important thing, live stories.

Christina McKelvy: 37:46

I like that. I'm gonna try and go to a documentary play. I don't know if there's any in Arizona, but that's not my new life goals to experience a documentary play, because again it's that quote you said where all hearts are beating at once or gets on the same rhythm yeah yeah, that lived experience.

Christina McKelvy: 38:08

Come see my plate. Yes, february, they said, work trip sponsored by me. The podcast, um, yeah, no, I mean, I think, I think it's beautiful and you know, birth is such a great symbolism, I believe, also for that hope and resilience and healing and just rising from the ashes, something new, something to hope for in the future generations, and so it's really great that you're doing a play like that's focused on this thank you, yeah, I think I hope it's hopeful.

Lillian Isabella: 38:42

My goal is for, when somebody finishes watching the play, that they feel slightly overwhelmed because it's gonna be a lot of content. So slightly overwhelmed and also with a sense of they need to talk about it more, they need to talk to their friend about it, they need to call our mom, they need to ask a question. So, like, ultimately, I think conversation like authentic, direct conversation, the willingness to be vulnerable, the willingness to get uncomfortably intimate about really important life topics, is how you create change and transformation in a society yeah, you have to be willing to get uncomfortable you do and raw, right and real and like, yeah, I think that's so important yeah, and if you're not uncomfortable, if you don't go out of that space, there's not really any change.

Christina McKelvy: 39:40

Yes, yeah, so that's one of your goals for the audience is that they are able to experience that discomfort. But in order to create that conversation, to create change, yeah.

Lillian Isabella: 39:51

I want to make people feel a little uncomfortable and a little inspired uncomfortable plus inspired, equals change?

Christina McKelvy: 39:58

I think so. Yeah, I love it and that's why. That's why the arts are so important. You know, play, writing, books and theater and movies, songs. You know. The arts are a way to be able to instigate that conversation in an open way and create that change yes, yeah, 1000 percent.

Lillian Isabella: 40:20

There's this in my last play at. One of the people I interviewed is a tantric expert and she talked about how she looks for ecstatic experiences. So she looks for experiences that pick you up and shake you around and when you put it back down again, your molecules are rearranged and like she doesn't want to just have the oh, that's nice, thank you experiences. She wants to have the experiences and then your transform in some way, in moderation, you know, and in a healthy like.

Lillian Isabella: 40:50

The thing I love about theater, too, is that it, for me, it's safe. It's like a. It's a safe space where you've agreed on certain rules, you've agreed on there being a stage and they're being performers and they're being, you know, a set and things, and that you, as the audience, are agreeing to sit there and watch the play and to take it in and to trust these artists with a bit of your time. And I think that that agreement, like having that safety in place, allows you to explore really tough topics, really transformative topics, because you understand there's a container and the containers agreed upon ahead of time by everybody, and so then you're safe to have an ecstatic experience because you know what the rules are and you know, you've had a baseline understanding of what the experience is and you've opted into it, and I think that's essential for that kind of a conversation or experience being able to feel safe while getting shook it up and your molecules being arranged, rearranged yes, 100%.

Christina McKelvy: 41:50

I love it. Love it. Well, lillian, we are getting too close, but I feel like I can talk to you forever. I like to ask this question to all my guests, because my podcast is called Hopology what gives you hope or what brings you hope?

Lillian Isabella: 42:05

oh, I love that question. Hmm, I think what? What brings me hope is when people are willing to talk to each other, when people are willing to initiate conversation and when people are willing to listen, and I'm also just like, more immediately hopeful about my play, and I feel like hopeful that institutions like the tank support independent artists who are doing things that are outside the norm and, you know, put their full support behind it. That brings me hope too, because there's so much that's changing right now with artificial intelligence and with, you know, a million different things that are happening, like the strikes that are going on right now with the guilds and the unions, and they're so important, and like really supporting artists and supporting independent artists and there are still institutions that do. That brings me hope thank you.

Christina McKelvy: 43:03

Thank you so much for that and it's been a joy having you on on the podcast today. And, yes, go check out her play, primordial. You said. February, february first to February 25th in 2024, at the tank yes in New York City, 36th Street, native so go check that out and get a immersive experience where your molecules are sticking up and you leave wanting to help enact this change thank you so much, christina.

Lillian Isabella: 43:33

You're amazing.

Christina McKelvy: 43:34

I love chatting with you ah, you too, you too, thank you.