Christina McKelvy: 0:14

Book of Olnage Stories of Hope.

Christina McKelvy: 0:15

Healing and Resilience. I'm your host, christine McKelvie. Today we speak with author Jamie Herston. She is the writer of the Memoirs of the Black Sheep's series, a fictional story about Renee, but based on stories from her own life. We talk about how Jamie joined the military as a way to find stability, her history through drug addiction and the journey as a substance abuse counselor and writer. Stay tuned, welcome to Hopology Stories of Hope, healing and Resilience. I'm your host, christine McKelvie. Today we have author Jamie Herston joining us. Hi, jamie, how are you Good? How are you? I'm doing well, thank you, thank you, it's. It feels earlier than it should. I know it's only 10 o'clock, at least where I'm at, but feels a lot earlier, feels like it should be six.

Jamie Hairston: 1:25

It does. It's the Mondays.

Christina McKelvy: 1:28

The Mondays, and I feel like I should change my interview days to a different day. I don't have Mondays because that's my day off with my other job, but you have the Monday blues. So, jamie, tell our listeners a little bit about you. You know, I know I reached out to you on written three books and so, yeah, just tell us a little bit about you.

Jamie Hairston: 1:52

OK, so shoot, I don't even know where to start. So I am. I am an author. I've written three books. They are inspired by my true life but they are fictionalized. I am noticing that with every book there's a little more fiction, but there's still like elements of the truth in there.

Jamie Hairston: 2:14

Basically, I started my journey a long time ago, yeah, and let's see. So I was married to a man who I had met in high school and we had a few kids together. After my father passed away, he kind of ended up getting into meth. So, to be honest, he had always been a drug dealer but it was like weed and to me, like I've never thought weed was that serious and so. But then after my father passed away, he was really honestly, it started like he was just trying to kind of take care of my family, because at the time we were living with my mom and dad when my father passed away and then, like my mom's house was in foreclosure and so it was just like all of it was just piling up and he was really just trying to help us kind of get through things and eventually meth kind of won him over and it led to like a really tumultuous breakup.

Jamie Hairston: 3:21

So I eventually ended up using as well. I guess I kind of was like, if you can't beat him, join him.

Christina McKelvy: 3:29

I was going to ask if that influenced him selling meth and with meth being around, right, easy access, right.

Jamie Hairston: 3:35

And that's like what's kind of ironic, because he had been approached before about like selling meth or whatever and he was like no. I'm not going to do that blah, blah, blah, and then, like just the perfect storm of events happened to where he was like okay, and then he was like I'm going to sell it but I'm not going to use it. And then, like you know, and that was my first lesson in, if you don't set a boundary event, you know, draw a line in the sand.

Jamie Hairston: 3:59

Eventually there is no line. So anyways, so, needless to say, over the course of probably the next one or two years because it was it's all started my father passed away in 2002. I kind of started using meth. I think the first time I used meth it was like around 2004. And it was like not long after I'd had my third son and I always say October, I don't know why, so maybe October or four, maybe not. It was a long time ago, so yeah, so I ended up using like just kind of gradually, just functionally.

Jamie Hairston: 4:34

He wasn't living with me, I had three small kids, I was trying to work a job, I was living literally off of like $800 a month.

Jamie Hairston: 4:41

And like I think about that now and I'm like, oh my God, that's crazy. But like I was lucky because like my mom was my landlord and all the utilities and everything were in their name and I only had to pay them X amount of dollars. So everything I had left over went to like food and gas and whatever, and so anyway, needless to say, in 2006, I was very, very, very heavily using, and that's kind of where my journey starts and that's kind of what you see in the story. So my character in the story, the character that's based off of me in the story, is Renee, and so a lot of what's in the first book is very true. Some things are taken out of order. Of course, all names have been changed and that's because initially, when I started writing this, I really didn't know where I was going to take it. So, and also like somebody may not like what I have to say, so it's easier just to protect their identity.

Jamie Hairston: 5:45

My now ex-husband has been in and out of trouble with the loss, so I also just didn't want to do anything that was going to kind of jeopardize whatever situation he's in. Yeah, so I ended up eventually kind of like not really getting my shit together, but getting it together enough that joined the service, which this is kind of an ironic story. I mean, this is during the Bush administration and basically if you had a pulse you can get in. I did a little bit of omitting of information to get in and I did require a waiver. It's like a headache, but somehow I ended up getting in and eventually the Army actually figured it out. But by the time they figured it out I had been in a while, so I was good.

Christina McKelvy: 6:36

But needless to say. So it was the Army, it was the branch that you were in.

Jamie Hairston: 6:40

Right, the Army is the yeah. So, needless to say, when I left, I was so worried about not being able to keep my shit together that I signed a six-year contract Because I was like this will force me to care.

Christina McKelvy: 6:55

Discipline from an outside source.

Jamie Hairston: 6:58

And I remember at that time a friend of mine was like you know, they have two-year contracts, right, and I was like, yeah, but I need a six-year one. And then the other kind of anomaly is that when I went to sign my paperwork after I had done all of the intake and everything and then I came to signing my contract, it was nine days Nine days from when I went to the processing station to I had to go back and fly to boot camp. So I remember when I signed my paperwork I called my mom and I was like, hey, so I'm leaving. It was in February of 07, like da-da-da day, and she was like we don't even have time to throw you a going away party, like nine days. And I was just like, if I don't leave now, it's like I'm going to have too much time and I'm going to want to change my mind and I was just so immature, like when I think about it, I was 23 years old.

Jamie Hairston: 8:02

I was still so immature, like, so indecisive, and I could waffle from one moment to the next, and that was the only thing I was self-aware about really at the time was like if I don't go, I'm going to change my mind. So it kind of led me on this journey to where I am. So I did serve five years and I was like I'm going to change my mind eight months and like 29 days or something.

Christina McKelvy: 8:27

Five years, eight months, 29 days, very specific.

Jamie Hairston: 8:31

Yeah, well, because so I actually was scheduled to get out in February of 2013. I did give birth in I'm really thinking about it September of 2011, and the unit I was then was actually about to deploy, and so it was really it's like a weird situation. So I was just trying to write out the last little bit of my contract, but they were going to be losing a body because I wasn't going to be able to deploy because, right before we found out, we were deploying the person who was my babysitter. We had some conflict and she was no longer doing it. So in the Army, well, in all branches of service they have, you have to have a person who can watch your kids, like whether you go to the field or the gun range or whatever. And I no longer had that person and I was stationed in upstate New York and all of my family was back in Arizona. And I mean, even when I had my daughter, I was by myself. I had to find like I had to go to my unit and be like, can I have a co-worker with me so I don't have to deliver by myself? And they were really cool. They let me have two people, and then a friend of mine had actually come up and everything. So it was, it was cool, but anyway.

Jamie Hairston: 9:59

So, needless to say, I ended up getting out a little bit early under the no family care whatever, but I mean it was still. It was an honorable discharge, and it was more because the unit was leaving. It was cool because they had started the paperwork like a year before I was supposed to discharge. But I worked in the office where the paperwork was done and so I knew all the tricks to extend it because I was really wanting to finish my six years.

Jamie Hairston: 10:28

But I was also like I'm going to have to get out before they leave. So I managed to stay until, let's see, september, october, november, december, like five months before my contract was up. So I was able to like really kind of drag it out because I really didn't want to leave, and it was like unfortunate that everything just kind of happened the way it did, but anyway, so I got out. But before I got before I was going to get out, like I had started going to school and and this is actually before I even was pregnant and I was like what's the easiest degree I can get while I'm in here, you know, because while I was in they would pay for X amount of dollars for so many glasses.

Jamie Hairston: 11:08

So I chose psychology because I felt like that was an easy degree I could do from anywhere, which I wasn't wrong. You just can't do much with a bachelor.

Christina McKelvy: 11:18

Yeah, you have to.

Jamie Hairston: 11:20

usually it's not a terminal degree, right, right and so, and what's really funny is because I was actually looking at bartending school but somehow I ended up picking psychology. So the same yeah, you're not wrong, so anyway. So I ended up doing the psychology for a little bit and then, once I knew I was getting out, I really started like focusing. So I was going to school full time while I was still in because I was trying to get as much done as I could Because I really had no plan at this point.

Jamie Hairston: 11:53

My plan originally was to get out after my six years and go home and really just spend time with my kids, because even though I had like a relationship and everything with them, still I had spent a lot of time away, you know, and so I had no plan whatever. Got out, got my bachelor's in psychology I did, really I was. So I went from being a meth addict to taking all of that energy in thinking about meth and using meth and applying it to school, and I really actually did really really good. If I wouldn't have had to take a math class or a statistics class, I would have had an amazing GPA, but math and statistics are not my forte, so I think I only ended up with like a 3.63 or something, but I had initially been making the dean's list.

Jamie Hairston: 12:46

like when I first started I was like 4.0, 3.9, you know. So I was still kind of like, oh, you know, I'm so sad. But then when I finished that I had already been researching what I was going to do for my master's and I went and chose the longest master's program I could find which is my degree has this really long, fancy name? I have a master's of science in Christian counseling of substance abuse and addictive disorders. So I literally took six extra classes.

Jamie Hairston: 13:20

So I have a master's in addiction counseling but, I, also had a focus in Christian counseling, and that was before I was, on my whole, not sure about Christianity journey. But anyway, so I did that program because I had such bad anxiety that I wasn't sure how I was going to do the internship. And so it was, and I knew like I was going to have to do that in person, and so I wanted the longest amount of time possible to like prepare myself for that, and so I ended up being a three year master's instead of a two year master's and being the queen of biting off more than you can chew. I couldn't couldn't do that without thinking about my PhD, of course. So I started looking at another school and I actually, in my, during my internship, which I completed at an Arizona State Prison, I started going to school for my PhD while I was still working on my master's, like a crazy woman.

Christina McKelvy: 14:30

So so you were interning the state prison for your master's and then so you weren't done with your master's and I started a PhD.

Jamie Hairston: 14:40

Correct yeah. I was paying out of pocket for it, because you can only have student aid at one school.

Christina McKelvy: 14:45

Yeah, so yeah.

Jamie Hairston: 14:46

So my crazy butt and I did. I managed to get four A's, I had two full time master's classes and two full time PhD classes, and I did a residency which was like a four day event in San Diego. So and then after that semester, I realized I was crazy.

Jamie Hairston: 15:08

So I decided I was not going to continue trying to do that all at once, so I ended up finishing my master's, worked at the prison for about a year and a half. That was a really amazing experience. One thing that I've learned is that if you can work with inmates, you can pretty much work with anybody, because you it's. It's an experience I really don't even know how to explain. So. None of them need drug treatment. They were able to quit anytime they wanted to, and a lot of people you know they stay sober in prison just because the politics of using drugs in prison can be very dangerous. It's even more expensive to be a drug addict in prison, to be honest. So what's the?

Christina McKelvy: 15:55

cause of that.

Jamie Hairston: 15:56

Sorry, I don't mean to oh, so because they don't have like money, everything has to be traded. So I mean you'll, you'll even see like extortion, where somebody is commissary, is going to go to this other person because they have this habit. It's just getting people to smuggle in drugs is high risk, so it just it's a very, very expensive thing to do and you know, honestly, you can find a lot more drugs in prison than you can outside of it, which is why, like one of my whole soapbox things is that's why sending people to prison for drugs isn't really fixing anything. But anyway, so, yeah, so that was a really interesting experience. I really enjoyed it.

Jamie Hairston: 16:47

I got my license there and then, after I and I was there for a little over a year, it was, it was a really good paying job too, but there were some other issues that I just decided it was best if I left, and so I ended up working with children and very different prisoners to children. Well, it is, and it isn't because, like so now I've had this perspective on addiction from so many angles, because I was an addict.

Jamie Hairston: 17:21

I was the wife of an addict, I am the sister of an alcoholic, I know somebody who's been in prison, so yeah, so it was interesting because a lot of the kids that I worked with ended up being DCS involved. And guess what? A lot of the parents had drug problems or families in prison or whatever.

Jamie Hairston: 17:47

So so it was so I got a whole different perspective because my personal addiction story is just such an anomaly to me because I've never really seen anybody with one like mine. A lot of them are very similar, but I had a very supportive family. My kids went to live with my mom. She eventually adopted them, but we still had like a very co-parencing relationship and a lot of these kids were either completely separated from their families or their parents never wanted to be involved, or the parents were struggling, like I was so many years ago and couldn't get their shit together so they couldn't get their kids. So it was just such a different experience. I remember one of the kids that I worked with was this really adorable little baby and his mom ended up passing away of an overdose and like that was my first really experience with like client loss. Just because she had she was my client too.

Jamie Hairston: 18:55

She was coming in to work her case plan and that was my first thing and so like it was good for me because I was like, if ever I needed a reminder of why to stay sober, like that was it. It was just, it was. It was difficult, but the place where I was working had a very toxic culture, which was sad because I actually probably could have stayed doing that job despite everything. But I had a boss who micromanaged like everything, and I had a case load of.

Jamie Hairston: 19:31

At one point I had a case load of 110 clients because so many people had left. We're supposed to have a max of 25.

Christina McKelvy: 19:39

I can relate one of my past jobs. Yeah, yeah school case load of 120 and I was also. I was the therapist and the case manager. And talk about being thrown into the deep end.

Jamie Hairston: 19:52

Yeah, and then this this was my first introduction to billable hours, so, and it's the only job I've ever had where, as a therapist, billable, billable, billable. So even with that case load, I wasn't meeting my billable hours. And that is to me, honestly, that's a. It's a Medicaid scam and I have no problem saying this, because I will scream it from the the rooftops that anybody who takes Medicaid, and only Medicaid, is a Medicaid scam. And my reasoning for that is if you get them on the phone for five minutes, you get to bill for 15 minutes.

Christina McKelvy: 20:32

It's a client hour contact. When we're talking about billable hours, it's right, right it's.

Jamie Hairston: 20:38

And that's me like, and I understand like you have to set like a line somewhere. I do understand that. But like our mission in life was to, if you didn't have anybody, call 20 people in that hour and bill 15 minutes, and to me that is a scam.

Christina McKelvy: 20:54

Yeah.

Jamie Hairston: 20:56

What other industry Are you allowed to do that outside of law? You know, and and law is completely different, because you might have six people working on a case. This is one person. It rub me the wrong way because they are always like this is so client centered. No, it wasn't. I was. I was client centered. I cared about, you know, each client.

Jamie Hairston: 21:18

But I felt like it takes away the. It takes away the genuineness. I don't, I don't know I there's a word I'm looking for, but that's not it. But it takes, it takes away the rapport, it takes the authenticity, it takes away the authenticity of what you are trying to do for your clients, when it's like, okay, I just been five minutes checking up on so and so now let me see how I can get them off the phone so I can check up with somebody else, and so to me, like that was really difficult, but I think, like what really got me.

Jamie Hairston: 21:56

Honestly, this is it's like a bizarre story, but I actually had had a motorcycle accident on my way to work and I never missed the work. I missed the work once for a surgery, but I planned it and I you know whatever, but I never missed work. I didn't call out ever at this job. And I texted my boss and said, hey, I just had a motorcycle accident, I'm not going to make it in today. When she texted me back was like you need a doctor's note. Okay, well, no shit, I just had an accident, so kind of planning to get one. So I went and got the doctor's note and I had just interviewed for a raise because they pulled a fast one on me. They hired me and paid me at the non licensed rate, even though I was licensed when I was hired and I let it go because I was like you know what is not going to kill me? So, but then they wanted me to use my license to sign off on stuff. So I was kind of like I'm not really comfortable doing that till I'm getting paid at a license wage. So did the interview process I had to go through to get that raise and I had done the interview in like April, and they were like, okay, we're going to increase your wage in June. Okay, fine, june rolls around Nothing, july rolls around Nothing.

Jamie Hairston: 23:25

So the day after I come in from my accident was the day that my raise was supposed to kick in and I looked and they it didn't kick in and I don't know why, but it just sent me into an emotional meltdown. And this is like the third time that week I had called my husband crying because I called him crying over she's treating me like a liar, and I felt like it was so disrespectful to me because I wasn't always calling out, you know. And then I went in and they didn't give me my raise and it was just like one thing after another. And my husband said Jamie, you have called me three times this week crying over this goddamn job, quit the damn job. And so I had to sit there and like really think on it, because I'm notorious for making irrational decisions like that. But for my husband to encourage it was not something I was used to. So I like really had to sit there and think about it and I was like you know what he's right, and normally I want to look for another job. But I was like you know what I'm, I'm not doing it like he's right.

Jamie Hairston: 24:40

So me, being the big confrontational person I am ha, ha, ha sarcasm I wrote my two weeks notice note and snuck into my boss's office on her lunch and stuck it on her desk and then went off to because I had to go to a client's house left and their policy there was 30 days, but they because they didn't want to pay for your insurance. It ends up being like the end of the week, ok, so I had my accident, like July 2nd, and I think like they were like you don't have to come back after the 28th or whatever you know, whatever the end of the calendar week was. So I had no jobs, no prospects, nothing. So I was like I don't know how I'm going to do this, but I'll figure it out. I'm just going to wing it. And I ended up applying, like back at the prison.

Jamie Hairston: 25:30

And then I stumbled across the next job that I went to, which was working in a residential group home.

Jamie Hairston: 25:36

That job I pretty much knew I actually, when I applied for the job I was like I don't want to work in a group home because my experience with working in group homes as a temp prior to this was never good. It was always a little bit scary or boring or like just I was happy to do it as a temp because when they called me and asked me to do it again, I could say no. So I was like I don't think I'm going to take this job, but I'll apply for it anyway. And then when she called me and she interviewed me, it was basically like you can work as much, as little as you want to, as long as the clients get X amount of sessions per month. There's X amount of group sessions per month. You hold this weekly meeting per month. You can work from home half the time. You have to be in office, you have to do this, this and this, but very flexible. And I was like, well, that's my kind of jam.

Christina McKelvy: 26:33

Yeah.

Jamie Hairston: 26:34

So, and I would do as much as I could Monday through Thursday, so I wouldn't have to come in on Fridays, and that's what I did pretty much until the pandemic hit, which that was the whole other thing in and of itself, and then in the middle of that job, I had my midlife crisis, bottom line crisis.

Jamie Hairston: 26:51

Yeah, yeah, I didn't. My midlife crisis was I don't know what I want to be when I grow up, and I just now figured this out. After all this education, and one of the things that had stuck with me, that was really kind of holding me back, was when I had left the prison. One of the girls there said you're not going to just have all that education and use it for nothing. And so, like I kept thinking, I've invested all this time into this education, I have to make this my career.

Christina McKelvy: 27:19

Mm, hmm.

Jamie Hairston: 27:21

And in my midlife crisis I realized that was bullshit. It was bullshit too To think that just because I had that education meant I had to stay stuck in that career, because there's many, many things I mean. I have become the master at deescalation from my education alone Period.

Christina McKelvy: 27:42

Mm, hmm, mm hmm.

Jamie Hairston: 27:44

And that's like not even experienced. And you know, I grew up in a family where, unfortunately, mental illness doesn't just stop and visit one or two people. It takes this time to get to know everybody in the goddamn tree. So in the middle of my midlife crisis, I was talking with a colleague and I was like well, I think my biggest barrier is being in recovery myself.

Jamie Hairston: 28:06

Like I think I'm getting a little bit of the vicarious trauma, but I also think like I don't want to do this job anymore. I think maybe I need to do it from a different perspective and after I went on my whole little crying ugly tirade about I don't know, what I want to do with my life.

Jamie Hairston: 28:25

She said you know I was thinking about something, so what? And she said I love what I do and I will say that I'm happy to change jobs, but I would never as easily as you just did say maybe I need to change career paths. And you did that, and you did it without a second thought. And she said, like I think the real issue is like you are not what you want to be when you grow up. And like, as much as that might sound like she was talking to a child, it was the best way she could break it down for me. Because then it hit me like I think she's right.

Jamie Hairston: 29:04

So I sat down and wrote like a pros and cons list, like is this what I wanted to do? What happens if I quit this? What do I want to do instead? And of course, by this time I had published my first book. I really got to thinking about it and realized that, like I had been, I had been thinking my whole life about writing Because I've been writing since I was eight years old and I had just published a book and I thought about it and I was like you know what?

Jamie Hairston: 29:39

I want? To be a writer, and so then I had to talk. So I've talked this over with everybody but my husband at this point and um, so I called him up and he was like you can't keep doing those jobs.

Christina McKelvy: 30:00

This is very similar to your last one Right, or maybe not similar, but as similar Right.

Jamie Hairston: 30:08

But then when I but then when I finally filled him in on this entire conversation that I had had with my therapist, with my colleague, with my A former coworker, like once I had really gone into it with him, he's like okay, now, when you explain it like that, I understand it, but I still need time. So like think about it and I was like well, I'm not trying to quit today, so you're good.

Christina McKelvy: 30:33

Right.

Jamie Hairston: 30:34

And you know, it took a while and then it was like what am I going to do if I don't work? You know, and I'm in a unique situation that I have income outside of what I did. So when I finally, like when we were finally comfortable, I finally said okay, I'm going to, I'm going to do this thing, I'm going to quit and I'm going to write full time. And that's kind of what led me to my books. Initially, I honestly was like I'm going to end up going back to work.

Christina McKelvy: 31:09

But here I am, I'm going to quit a little bit later Almost exactly two years Because I quit.

Jamie Hairston: 31:17

my last day was June 30, I think. No it was no, it was May 31st, because I remember it was a holiday weekend.

Christina McKelvy: 31:29

And I remember we worked together, so that's why I remember this.

Jamie Hairston: 31:33

It was a holiday weekend and I specifically went in on the holiday because I just knew they were going to try to not pay me for that day, and sure, I was absolutely right. So I had to write them afterwards to get my last day of pay, and it was the day before my birthday. That's why I remember, because the very next day we went to Vegas for my birthday, my son and I. We went to Vegas so I could play some blackjack and yeah. So, so, needless to say, yeah that's. And then now I'm just writing full time. And then I, oddly enough, ended up volunteering to be a bartender. So it was only without a job for like two months. Volunteering to be bartending? Yeah, I was, no, I was not. Well, okay, so it was, you could keep your tips, but you didn't get paid.

Jamie Hairston: 32:22

So I ended up getting involved with the VFW veterans of foreign wars and that's a whole other story in itself, but I ended up bartending for about four or five months there, which was amazing. It was fun and yes definitely a lot like being a therapist. The difference was customer service was not required. It was super nice to everybody, but I had no problem saying get the heck out of here, or you've had much to drink or and even my therapy skills carried over there too.

Jamie Hairston: 32:52

We had a guy walk in who peed on himself and I had to sit down and be like I cannot serve you according to Arizona State Law because you have urinated yourself. Like nobody wanted to have this conversation, so it had to be me, and you know. So I did that for a while and that was like really fun. And during that process, while I was still kind of trying to figure everything out, I said I got a stupid ad like the way I come across things is always like it just falls into my lap. And so I got this ad about you can form an LLC and get a tax deduction, and blah, blah, blah, and it's like December. Okay, so I was like great idea, because I knew I hadn't really worked out much that year. I wanted a good tax return, you know so, for my LLC in December, so that I could get the deduction, which it really didn't end up paying off till the next year. But and that was just going to be, oh, this is how I'm going to route my money so I can make sure my taxes are done correctly. And then I just kind of turned it into an agency, and that's kind of what I do now.

Jamie Hairston: 33:56

I work for myself. I have a blog, which you know. I got so busy with one of my very high needs clients that I haven't actually written in two months, but I have a blog now on media, which is where I write about substance abuse, prison reform. I'm actually working on a military sexual trauma series. I'm in the middle of researching my most current story for an interview that I did with a woman who experienced it, and then I do editing, proofreading. I'm in the process of working on a steps to self publishing guide, a course for self publishing, and that's just kind of what I do now and, to be honest, I love it. I have chronic fatigue, so I'm to a place in life where I get up and work and then, between 11 and two, to take a nap anywhere in there.

Jamie Hairston: 35:00

And then I come back and do some work. My garage is my office right now, so I have an AC in here, but it got so hot for a few weeks that I did the work from six to 11, take a nap and then come back out and work from six to nine and that's just too hot to be in here, even with the AC. But and that's just kind of what I do and and I love it. I feel I feel like the biggest impact I can have on my community at this point and I think this is why I chose not to be a therapist anymore is I'm an amazing therapist. I really am, and I'm not afraid that's like I don't have a lot of confidence about a lot of things, but that was one thing. Every job I've left, my clients were just like why? And to me, if you were a shitty therapist, they're not going to care one way or the other if you're gone. The hardest part of me leaving was never leaving the job, it was leaving the clients.

Jamie Hairston: 36:02

And you know, I think about that and I think, like now my biggest impact is sharing my story, because as a therapist, you can't share your story because it's one, a boundary issue.

Jamie Hairston: 36:16

But the other thing that it does is you have people comparing their journey to yours and when their journey doesn't match up with yours then they start thinking they'll never do it. And I feel like as a peer, you can share your in recovery and it's going to affect them differently because you're a peer. But as a professional, if you were to share that story, then they're going to start feeling like they're not good enough. And I don't believe I don't believe it's really ever appropriate for self disclosure to be like oh, I was in recovery too as a therapist, as a peer support, maybe as a case manager or maybe, but never as a therapist just because I feel like it really messes with that therapeutic relationship. And so now I'm in a position where I can say whatever I want to is freely as I want to because, it's not going to cause harm to anybody, because they're not my clients.

Christina McKelvy: 37:12

Now it's self disclosure. Are you referring to mainly within substance abuse treatment or all together? Because I know.

Jamie Hairston: 37:19

I think, in general, to be honest, and a lot of times so, like one of the questions I got at the prison and they were very, very, very strict there was they had even more boundaries, like more than you as an average therapist. So, like you know, I could go to work and be like, oh, my daughter, this or that at one job, but at the prison I would never do that because it's too dangerous, you know. But I would say, just in general, it's not good. When, at the prison, one time somebody asked me how would you know anything about addiction if you're not an addict? And so my response was carefully crafted and it was I have been affected by someone who has struggled with addiction, because it's not a lie, right, but it's not overly disclosing, because who hasn't been affected by somebody with addiction?

Jamie Hairston: 38:10

Most people have at least one person that they know of that's been affected by addiction, and so that was my way of doing disclosure without disclosure. But when you say that to somebody outside of a prison setting, they still look at you like you have nine eyeballs and don't know what you're talking about. So, and for me sometimes, when people would come to me in therapy and say I experienced this, this and this, and you really don't know what it's like in my heart. I wanted to be like, but I do know what it's like. You know it's just not therapeutic to say that, especially because then they become more preoccupied with your story too.

Christina McKelvy: 38:49

So and it's interesting because I think there is like a movement where there is some encouragement of self disclosure, especially if you're LGBTQ or you know similar cultural backgrounds. Right, a lot of my clients are caregivers, so I do personally do some self disclosure of how you know I speak caregiver as well or have anxiety.

Jamie Hairston: 39:10

I think that's different. Though yeah, I do think that's different because you can do. I would say, oh, we've all struggled with depression at some point or we've all had a day where we felt like whatever, because I think that there's a level of disclosure. But I feel like when you are like I'm in recovery from true methodic and you're working with met, that true. Yes, that is dangerous territory for both of you. I mean, I've listened to the licensing board and I don't know it's.

Jamie Hairston: 39:42

It hurts my heart to see some of the therapists that have gone out and used with their clients and so like to me. Those are the situations in why disclosure matter, or self disclosure matters, because it's a gray area and like that's the one thing that is really, really hard.

Christina McKelvy: 40:01

Yeah.

Jamie Hairston: 40:02

You know some people don't. You have to know how to read the room really well and if you have discernment it'll work great for you. But just because maybe Christina can share her story, and nothing comes of. It doesn't mean that you know Michelle over here can tell her story, it's discernment within self-disclosure, correct?

Christina McKelvy: 40:23

Yeah, I wanted to go back words a little bit in your story. Okay, I'm curious if, because you mentioned that, you finally discovered what you wanted to do when you grew up and at the same time you're a very great counselor. But you realize that may not be the method or I'm losing my train of thought like the way to share your story, right, but curious if going into counseling, getting all that education in a way, was your way of treating yourself or, you know, like your own, like your own self-treatment.

Jamie Hairston: 41:02

I think it was in a way honestly because I've always been the problem solver. I used to like to make a joke in the army because I was the person who always ended up mediating actually the LBGTQ drama. Like I had a bunch of friends in that community, that always and I was like I'm going to start charging y'all for therapy, you know, and but I think I had a lot of it's.

Jamie Hairston: 41:32

Like you know, a comedian is telling jokes that come from a place of trauma a lot of times, like if you really listen to their jokes, right, there's some trauma in there and I feel like it's kind of the same as me, like you start discovering things and making light of it or healing others. So, like a lot of people, especially people that have, like trauma I have trauma in my background I think you start wanting to you. You become a healer, naturally, actually, because of your empathy, and I think, like what happened was I was given a specific diagnosis that I'm not I'm not going to say what it is because it's very signatized, but I was given a specific diagnosis and I wanted to learn more about that.

Jamie Hairston: 42:25

And then before I realized that PTSD which ended up changing everything. So, because my PTSD diagnosis is really what's genuine, it's like a genuine diagnosis, so it's my primary, or whatever. And the substance abuse is secondary. But the problem is when I was given this other diagnosis. It was given in the middle of a crisis. I was given this diagnosis while I was in the middle of the crisis. However, I wanted to learn everything about it, so I think my education did end up kind of.

Jamie Hairston: 43:06

I wouldn't really say it was about healing, it was about understanding, but then it was like it opened my eyes to everything, because then all of a sudden I understood everybody, like I drive my kids crazy with it, because they'll come to me and be like hey, I want to know this or that about dad and I'll be like okay, so this isn't me talking crap.

Jamie Hairston: 43:27

This is me saying I understand, but he's this way because of this, this or this, and they'll be like stop sugarcoating at mom. We just want to know the facts. We're not, we understand, you're not bad mouthing him, we don't really care what the psycho analysis is. We just want to know this, this and this. And, like, I realized that I do this with everybody. So it'll be like, okay, I understand why you're an asshole and I know how to talk to you, but people don't really care about the understanding they just want to be

Jamie Hairston: 43:59

like that person's a jerk or whatever you know. And so I think, like it set me on a path of healing, it set me on a path of understanding, but it also made me extremely intuitive and like, with the exception of a medical crisis, I can almost always handle like a mental health crisis, like I can. Just, you know, if somebody's bleeding or needs CPR, I'm going to panic and freeze, but if you're having a complete psychotic meltdown, I got you, you know, and that's just. It's made me very good at knowing how to like talk to people.

Jamie Hairston: 44:32

I guess really is the best way to say it.

Christina McKelvy: 44:35

Okay, Okay. Well, let me summarize what you just said. You know that sounds like you know going to school was part of your road to recovery, because it made you understand yourself and made you understand others. It helped you interact with others, and so that was so very valuable for yourself and I'm sure it's going to inform your writing, like psychology, really good character development. You know, I can see it being very helpful, you know, with your writing as well. I mean I've read both your books, so I see it there. I like to close every podcast with a question, and the question being is what gives you hope? Because my podcast is called Hopeology.

Jamie Hairston: 45:14

Okay, what gives me hope? I think the biggest thing that gives me hope is that more and more people are really starting to normalize the conversation around addiction and mental health. And that is my personal goal, through my writing, through my blogging, through everything is normalizing the conversation around mental health and addiction, because I think that's the only way that we're going to really have any sort of prevention.

Christina McKelvy: 45:48

And I think that it's not going to be just a normalizing, having it be easier to talk about, because you're right Prior generations, older generations, boomers, what have you? You don't talk about mental health.

Jamie Hairston: 46:02

Even cultures. It's not even just generations, it's even cultures. I think there's a little bit of a stigma, and it used to be back in the day. Oh well, that's just our weird uncle Al in the back on the rocking chair, people that are still that way. But now we're kind of getting to where, oh you know, someone who's in the mental hospital had a meltdown or whatever, and so we are getting more normalized, but I think we still have some barriers that we've got to overcome.

Christina McKelvy: 46:27

And just knowing that it's really integrated. You know, mental health can affect physical health and vice versa, and and there's a lot of new discussions, kind of like what we were talking about before self-disclosure or mental health through fiction, things like that that are coming to the surface and I am really curious and I can't excited to see what happens in the future, you know, with the discussion of mental health.

Jamie Hairston: 46:50

So oh yeah, oh yeah, and I think integration is the way to go.

Christina McKelvy: 46:53

I think, that.

Jamie Hairston: 46:54

That's actually really good too, because I really like that they're trying to integrate mental health. Yeah, obviously we're in the US, so our mental or our health in general isn't that great. I really feel like mental health, dental vision and health should all be integrated, period Right, like there should be no separation, but argument for another day. But I really enjoyed.

Christina McKelvy: 47:15

You know your conversation, you know this conversation, so you know. Thank you so much for being here. I will put your information, your website flawed by design and also the links to your book through Amazon or Goodreads. What would you?

Jamie Hairston: 47:29

through Amazon is best because they can download right from Amazon, although the Goodreads and the Amazon reviews help me. Even if you hate my stuff, even if I'm not offended- by one star reviews.

Christina McKelvy: 47:42

All right, all right. Well, there we go, but you have three books out and are you going to be writing any other books or are you having a project?

Jamie Hairston: 47:50

in the future I am going to do a book for, but I am taking a year off before I even consider writing chapter one of book four. So in book three, you I leave you with the cliffhanger, as always, but I leave it with a room to go either way. But I'm, there will be a book for I just I need a break from that story for a while so I can work on some other things that are important to me.

Christina McKelvy: 48:20

Yeah, yeah, like the stuff with medium. I'm on the name as well, and it's a great community and I'll, especially now that they're monetizing like they're, just they're changing.

Jamie Hairston: 48:30

It makes you like more and like. I'm trying to get more consistent with that because I feel like that's really the platform where I can share and reach more people, and then everybody's going to read a book with some people and read a minute block.

Christina McKelvy: 48:42

Yeah yeah, exactly Well, jamie. Thanks so much for being here. Like I said, I did enjoy this conversation and looking forward to more of your writing, so I'll put all that information in my show notes and I hope you have a great rest of your day. All right, you as well. Thank you so much, yeah.