Healing Through Therapy and Self-Exploration

Christina McKelvy 0:13

Welcome to Hopology stories of hope, healing and resilience. I'm your host, christina McKelvey. Today we have Christophe Noll. How are you?

Christophe Ngo 0:21

I'm doing good. Thanks for asking. Thanks for getting my name right. Everybody gets it wrong. Everybody thinks I misspell it because there's no R at the end, but as a joke I've been telling people that it's a. Yeah, I don't have an R at the end because a pirate took it.

Christina McKelvy 0:39

Oh my goodness, well, I hope you find it. Or maybe it's cooler without the R, I don't know. I think it's cool, so, and I'm so blonde, I just thought, like a pirate says R, so that's why a pirate took it. Oh my goodness, all right. Well, I love that joke.

Christophe Ngo 0:54

I got dad jokes for days, don't worry.

Christina McKelvy 1:00

Dad jokes are the best. That's like for me, me dad jokes and dry humor or dark humor, which my husband hates it. I will laugh at something that's like cards against humanity. He hates that game and I'm like this is amazing. So all right, so I um, thank you so much for being on here. I'm'm super excited and you know, just tell me a little bit about yourself and we'll go from there.

Christophe Ngo 1:21

Yeah, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist from California. I'm located in Long Beach and my office is in Seal Beach. I do mostly like telehealth and I do also have an office, so I kind of go in the office a couple days a week. I specialize in like sex therapy, like kink, alternative lifestyles.

Christina McKelvy 1:40

I also specialize in intergenerational trauma, shame, rejection and identity oh, that is a buffet, but it all kind of goes together when you think about it it does and I'm also really well. I work really well with people with adhd and autism specifically okay, and you know I'm also a therapist being in the field. Like I said, intergenerational trauma and shame, and then you have kink, lgbtq, like all that really can mesh well together. Um, and a lot of people experience that. How did you get into all those different domains?

Christophe Ngo 2:18

A good way of putting, I guess, for getting to the kink and sex therapy. I've always had an interest in it. It's always been very shameful. It always kind of you had to hide it, especially growing with Asian cultures. My family group you didn't talk about these things, so I've always been interested, and you know, with the internet and porn, so it's really fascinating.

Christophe Ngo 2:38

It wasn't until grad school where there was a person who was like I'm a sex therapist. I was like you're a what? And they told me about kink. I'm like I knew about it, but I didn't know the nuances. And after I finished grad school I finally took up the courage and I went to like an event, like a kink event, a munch, and then I just kept going and going and I met some amazing people there and I started to realize, oh, I've struggled with this concept when it comes to my own sexuality, being like bisexual and everything also adding this kink. Now I understood it being the community and now I have a way to like help people through it, because I've been through it before yeah, I always find that's like one of the most strongest forms of therapeutic rapport is when the client's like, oh my goodness, you understand.

Christina McKelvy 3:19

You're not just this blank slate expert, you know ivory tower type of person, you've been there, you understand. So that must have been very helpful for you.

Christophe Ngo 3:29

Yeah, oh no, I'm the ivory tower, don't get me wrong. I had to climb up to get to that tower, so to speak.

Christina McKelvy 3:36

But you're right.

Christophe Ngo 3:37

Most of my clients, my ideal clients, are a reflection of me. That's what that's your best client is, because I've been through it. So of course, I'm going to relate more to people to do it Like. My style of therapy is I'm very earnest and I'm very honest and I'm blunt and I tell people all the time my job is to make you uncomfortable. They're like wait, wait, I thought I was supposed to be comfortable. You're supposed to feel safe to be, to be comfortable, to be challenged. I'm not here to hold your hand. Yeah, I'm here to hold your hand and support you, but at the same time, the reason you're struggling is because something's you're doing something or something's going on and it's not changing. A quote that I like to original quote, actually of mine is just like our courage, um, courage doesn't exist without fear. Growth does not exist without discomfort.

Christina McKelvy 4:23

You must, you want to grow.

Christophe Ngo 4:24

You gotta be uncomfortable.

Christina McKelvy 4:26

Yeah, growth does not. Growth does not exist without discomfort. It's like that pruning.

Christophe Ngo 4:35

Yeah, and humans love being comfortable. That's how we grow out of our discomfort. When you first learn to swim, when you're just jumping in, or you did it, the easier it got, so you became comfortable yeah, yeah, and you had that fear.

Christina McKelvy 4:52

like you know, when you jumped in on the deep end, you would experience that fear, and I think we don't like to experience fear or uncomfortable feelings, so we push it to the side, but then we don't, like you'd mentioned, grow.

Christophe Ngo 5:05

Yeah, and you know, we all have messy sides to us and it's not about getting rid of them, but it's about learning to live with them and making space for them. The issues in my work, from my experience, is that the more people push away these messy sides to them, the worse they will get. And it's because it's like we talk about inner demons. You know, people say you know your inner demons, these, like it's. They're not inner demons, they're just you, different versions of you, who have been through traumatic experiences or memories or just been through life that kind of had significance. And it's like, hey, we're hurting, hey, we're hurting, hey, and then you're just ignoring because I don't want to deal with that.

Christophe Ngo 5:42

So it starts to manifest to where you will listen. So I had clients tell me about oh, like, it feels like this or like a snake wrapping on my throat, or it feels like someone's a black fog, I'm like, but that's because you weren't listening. So it turned into something that you would listen to yeah, I'm curious how that can also play into.

Christina McKelvy 6:05

Maybe they weren't listening, but also because other people weren't listening to them or not allowing them to speak it could.

Christophe Ngo 6:11

I think there's part of it where they feel like other people didn't allow them to speak, so it they start to internalize this, this concept and idea yeah, at the same time it goes back down to like the reason we have those, like those inner demons or this inner child, that inner part of that inner child is.

Christophe Ngo 6:26

You have to kind of heal that aspect of you, the aspect that was hurt and they didn't understand. Like you know, like we hold trauma in our body, we hold memories and emotions. Well, it protects, that it's functioning, is to protect you more than anything else, because you got hurt by something in the past and your brain goes oh this, this is not good, but you have. But we also have to ignore it because we want to be comfortable, because to deal with it is uncomfortable. So it starts to manifest, because it's trying to. It creates this monster, this idea, these feelings, that kind of make you feel stuck because you're trying to protect from feeling that pain again. But when you can turn around and confront it, it's not this monster, it's just you that's hurting, that you haven't healed from.

Christophe Ngo 7:15

And I like that analogy that you had earlier about the snake yeah Some people think of it differently and I like that analogy that you had earlier about the snake. You know, yeah, Some people think of it differently, it manifests differently, but it's this idea like I hate this aspect of me, but it's part of you that maybe got hurt. Yeah. And that's what they need to be, maybe cared for.

Christina McKelvy 7:33

I mean you begin that journey of healing. Like you said it's you're uncomfortable, it's scary and it's more comfortable. Even though it hurts, it still feels more comfortable to stay the same or be in the same, in like the midst of whatever that experience is. That's not been helpful.

Christophe Ngo 7:49

Yeah, and a really good analogy I tell clients is like a zebra goes to a watering hole right, almost as eaten by an alligator or crocodile, I don't know. I don't the difference right now, but the next day you know what's going to happen. He's going to do the same thing. Humans were like, okay, almost died, let's not do that, let's, let's do this. But sometimes you're like, well, I can't, I still need to cross this river, but I, I could get killed so we end up ignoring, let's find a different watering hole.

Christophe Ngo 8:18

But the reality is that, again, it's a defensive mechanism. It's great for our survival but at the same time it can also inhibit us. It's a great survival tool, but it's something you're like, oh, but doesn't. Because he was there last doesn't mean he's there this time, and if he's, if he is there, maybe I could put this is where I think of boundaries put up a bridge, a wall, you know, have a weapon to protect yourself if in case that does come, or again, get a boat, yeah, we can't crossing it. Just because you remember almost getting eaten doesn't mean you always get eaten yeah, you, like humans, we tend to expect that's going to happen again.

Christina McKelvy 8:58

That pattern, because we see patterns.

Christophe Ngo 9:00

Absolutely.

Christina McKelvy 9:01

But we can control how we navigate that. Like I said, putting in a bridge or going around.

Christophe Ngo 9:09

Humans like to generalize and it makes sense to generalize and compartmentalize to kind of figure out the world, because there's just too much going on. But the problem with that generalization is we go, oh, this feels similar to this. There must be something you know. Growing up I wasn't taught about emotions, I wasn't taught the difference between them. So to me anything that felt like anger became anger. It wasn't just, oh, frustration or annoying, it just was that anger, something with depression. I only knew very basic emotions and like to identify them, but I didn't know their subset. Like you've seen, the emotional wheel has the main emotions and about each of them yeah.

Christophe Ngo 9:48

If yes, this is still the baseline is anger. But is it really necessary anger? No, I'm frustrated about something. I'm angry, so the more I got to learn about identifying different emotions and what they actually were, the easier got to kind of explain what is I'm going through and can help me separate what is actually going on. Am I actually angry or I'm actually annoyed? Right or frustrated. Yes, the base emotion is anger maybe, but it doesn't mean.

Christina McKelvy 10:15

Doesn't mean it has to be that I'm curious how that ties into shame, because we tend to have a lot of shame with emotions typically, how we, some of us, how we were raised, ties into like do not feel this or do not express that way absolutely.

Identity, Sacrifice, and Greed

Christophe Ngo 10:32

I'll give you an example like struggling with shame, I have always grown up feeling like I'm not enough. Possibly not enough has been very drilled in my head, especially growing up with a lot of expectations, being the third out of five and, you know, doing well in school, then not doing well, having ADHD. So I never had that consistency because I've always had ADHD. I went, I had nothing to rely on. So I always I internalized this shame that, oh, what you do is not enough, who you are is not enough because no one has said you're enough. So my biggest fear for the longest time and I realized actually just last year is I'm afraid to love my. I was afraid to love myself.

Christophe Ngo 11:10

I still am slightly okay and because if I love myself, then I'm not a survivor anymore. Who am I? I'm a person who, a child of immigrant parents, you know, didn't have a lot of money, worked hard, sacrificed, like the concept of sacrifice is very ingrained in my head, this concept idea, but I realized it's like, if I am enough, what happens to that aspect of my being a survivor? Does it go? I'm afraid that it goes away. It doesn't, it's just an identity or label, but that fear of it goes away. The fear, yeah. Or they ask me, like the fear of like letting go of this identity, life. Like I had this because, like you know, I remember growing up we would compare like who got the worst beatings back in the 90s, like who got hit and we were, where are, where are beatings, like battle scars. I remember talking to friends like, oh, what did you get? Oh, I got hit with the broom, I got hit with this.

Christina McKelvy 12:08

I got hit with a belt with a bell.

Christophe Ngo 12:10

And then there was that one kid like and I'm, I'm, I'm joking. There's always this one kid we're like, and it's always the white kid Like what happened to you? He goes, I got sent to my room and I was just like you have a room, yeah, it's like, it's weird. It's weird Like we wear this badge, this pain, as a badge of armor. But why we shouldn't? We shouldn't?

Christina McKelvy 12:35

it's because, like scars, like, if you think about, like physical scars this is my story. This is how I got the scar. So wearing that pain is like a memory. But then again, how is it helpful, how is it unhelpful, how can you? Their motto is keep the memory, lose the pain, the memory of it still happen, but you lose the negative images, uh, sensations or feelings attached to it.

Christophe Ngo 13:12

Remember something a certain way does not actually mean that actually happened, just how your brain remembered it, and we hold on to that sensation of how we remembered something. So I've done a lot of work and I'm to a point where I used to be like I feel like I'm not, I'm not enough, I'm not. Nothing I do is enough. I'm actually. It's a lot different now. I'm afraid now of admitting I have enough and I'm holding on to the concept of not enough because I am actually afraid of admitting that I am enough.

Christina McKelvy 13:44

Like you said, what does that mean for your identity?

Christophe Ngo 13:47

Exactly Cause these past couple of years has been very challenging. I got licensed in the pandemic. I tried to build my business, you know, and just trying to like be a therapist, because they don't teach you how to be a business owner nope, in grad school, like you think they would, but they don't. So I had this concept like struggling, like oh, like money is success, and things like that. But everything I've done proves that I am enough when it comes to how much I make or what I've gone through. But this fear of like I don't want to be poor again, or I don't want to be that kid that's eight years old, eating soy sauce and rice for dinner. But the thing is, though, I'm not eight, I'm 33. I have a means. I have a higher education than my parents ever had. They've got a younger age than them but that fear of going back to that place, you know or like if I become enough. But I've been not enough.

Christophe Ngo 14:38

This label, not enough, my whole life. What happens to that? That's that struggle and I'm glad I went from I'm not enough to always trying to strive to be enough, but that just creates an unrealistic expectation to. I am afraid of admitting that I'm enough because everything, every, all the evidence proves otherwise and I'm resisting it oh, so that I hear imposter syndrome yes and no because, as a therapist.

Christophe Ngo 15:03

I do not have imposter syndrome I am here like there's surviving, living and thriving. I am thriving as a therapist, but as a business owner, I'm still surviving, live in, trying to get into that living stage because of money and success. This is this. This is this because so you can have both. Like people like how can you be really good at your job but feel like a whole, like a failure is because as a therapist, my identity as a therapist is very nothing, but nothing anyone can make me think otherwise yeah you know I'm good at what I do, but when it comes to being a business owner I haven't developed that because I'm still a very scarcity mindset and that clash it does create that imposter syndrome.

Christophe Ngo 15:44

But because of being a therapist I do not have any imposter syndrome. But as a business owner, absolutely I do.

Christina McKelvy 15:51

Especially coming from poverty. I can see why you know that need. That internal need to am I making enough or am I being successful enough on a financial level can be very important, but also cause that fear too. Yeah.

Christophe Ngo 16:07

I held on to this idea that money is success. Money is power. Money gives you everything you want. I I didn't grow up like super part of it, but there are moments where we had money when we did it and that really how I handled money impacted how I deal with money. I'm very good with money. I'll spend $300, $400 on people I love, I care about, but I won't buy myself a $20 thing. I go no, no, no, that's a waste of money.

Christina McKelvy 16:32

That's like a form of self. I'm losing the word, like I'm'm not, not self-care it's the opposite of self-care.

Christophe Ngo 16:42

yeah, it's like the idea of like I'll take care of others but I won't take care of myself. I'll do for you, but I will not spend. I'd be as like greedy with myself as others, because I grew up the idea of like I didn't matter, my voice didn't matter, my thoughts didn't matter. So so you, when you ask me this question of what is hope for you? Greed is hope for me, and people don't understand that Like, but that doesn't make sense. I go for example, someone who's working really hard, who wants a better life for themselves. Isn't that not greedy? Shouldn't you be happy with what you have? Yeah, to want more is to be greedy, is it not?

Christina McKelvy 17:21

Interesting and, as you're saying this, I'm trying to find a different word, for some reason, because of the negative connotation that the word greed has, exactly why I use it.

Christophe Ngo 17:32

Oh, greed is hope, hope is desire and desire is human. Mm-hmm.

Christophe Ngo 17:39

You know we think of hope as like to hope for something. I go it's also being it's I see as being greedy, especially when, if I'm a person who's growing up, I wasn't a greedy person. I wanted to be, but I learned that I felt that I didn't matter. In that sense, I couldn't be greedy, I couldn't be selfish, I couldn't be greedy. I couldn't be selfish, I couldn't be this way. I could do it for others, but I was not giving it to myself. So, to give myself hope, in a sense, to be more hopeful, I'm going to be more greedy by being greedy. I want to take care of people. That desire to have that is it not greed? Greed?

Christophe Ngo 18:20

is a form of love if you, you think about it. And love is humanity at its most. Avarice is to be human. And I hated the concept of being human because I hated my emotions, I hated all my feelings, I hated all these different weird things I held with. I hated the idea of being human because it came with all this trauma and like nastiness and like growing up and all these things you know.

Christina McKelvy 18:45

Being human is messy.

Christophe Ngo 18:47

Yeah, it being a hot, it's a hot mess yeah.

Becoming the Therapist I Needed

Christina McKelvy 18:51

Especially the last few years when you, like you mentioned, you got into your career in 2020. What a great time to you know, begin to be a therapist, yes and no, I know A sarcasm sign, um, and yeah, so I'm, I have so many thoughts, I'm, I'm curious how, um, just looking at our time, so okay, so we're doing great on time, but that trajectory of so your experience growing up, you know, not being able to express the emotions but feeling all these different emotions, maybe not knowing the difference between anger and frustration. And then you know, growing up with the queer identity, and then the Asian identity and then therapist identity, like how that all kind of ties into who you are today. And you talked a little bit about it with, like the mindset of what greed means to you, but how, like how that all ties into who you are today and, um, yeah, and like even how it maybe speaks to towards your work.

Christina McKelvy 19:54

And I realize it's a very open question so no, you're good.

Christophe Ngo 19:57

I think a good way to summarize it I became the therapist I needed when I was young. I love that person. I needed that. I would like. There's this ticked out. They're like you became the person you would feel safe with, or I became the therapist I needed. I need someone to kind of call me on my shit. Oh, am I not supposed to curse?

Christina McKelvy 20:16

you can curse, go for it. Cool.

Christophe Ngo 20:18

So like he was like my, I wasn't sure, like call me. I need someone to call me on my shit, but still support me. I just needed someone to see me. And I got that from my mentor, who I sadly passed away last year, uh, unexpectedly. But I remember going to her class. She was a teacher at community college and I fell asleep first day of class it was communications. I was like, oh, I'm so sorry, like I'm tired. She goes in this tiny five foot one texas woman, blonde hair, blue eyes, texan personality, all day through. She goes you're not tired, you're depressed. I go whoa, no, I'm not. She was. Yes, you are. I go. Like what the fuck is this? So I started arguing with her and since that day I argued with her every single day, even if I didn't have arguing with her. And since that day I argued with her every single day, even if I didn't have class with her.

Christophe Ngo 21:07

And to this day. She's the person. I attribute my life to her, because I would have killed myself if it wasn't for her. Wow saw me supportive and I didn't feel like they saw me. They understood me. She's the first person who I felt like saw me and I want to do that with my clients. I want them to feel like they are seen. Just because I see them, I'm supportive of them, doesn't mean I won't challenge you or call you on your shit. Just because you feel something. You're entitled to feel something. Whether you're right or not is a completely different story. Your feelings will always be valid, but if you're correct, that's up to question. So I ended up becoming the therapist I needed and she was part of that influence of like to be there for people To see their human.

Christophe Ngo 22:00

The thing I hated the most is what I'm really good at seeing people's humanity yeah so I have clients that I do not have values with at all, like opposite ends of the spectrum of my values and they're like what you agree, I go no. No, I'm validating you, I'm not agreeing with you. You want my personal opinion. I'll give it to you, but it's very different than yours and we tend to think that validation means agreement yeah, everybody thinks that I go. No, because they're your feelings. I can validate how you feel. Doesn't mean I have to agree with. Doesn't mean I can agree with it.

Christina McKelvy 22:31

I can still think you're wrong, but I can at least validate it yeah, and by validating regardless of belief, shows that you're seeing them, hearing them, like you said, seeing their humanity.

Christophe Ngo 22:47

Yeah, you know, I have some friends. There are a lot of things going on in the world. They react. I go like, how do you not get angry? I go I have my own opinions about it. But it's more like I have some clients tell me some of their political religious views I grew up Catholic, not Catholic anymore, but I can respect it and they're like oh, you, you, you, you agree. No just no. Yeah, I can see your perspective.

Christina McKelvy 23:13

And it's like stepping back, you know, having that observational viewpoint, but it takes skill, like not just as a therapist but, I think, just as an individual, to be able to do that. How did that come up for you, like, how do you remember when you're like did you have a time where you weren't able to do that, or have you always been able to?

Christophe Ngo 23:31

part of my grad school training is I was at a rehab for like a year and a half. That really puts things into perspective. But the thing is, I'm very good at compartmentalizing, because it was a survival skill. Yeah, very good at like separating myself. So as soon as I step out this, this room, I'm not christophe the therapist, I'm just christophe. You know, I'm able to kind of, because it's not my problem. I've had sessions where clients like, oh, thank you for not crying. I go. Why would I cry? They go look at me, go. Oh, because it's sad. I go, yeah, for you, that sucks. Well, why would I cry, though? Because they've had other things that cried and got triggered. And have I had countertransference? Absolutely, have I got triggered my own way? Absolutely, yeah, what about me?

Christina McKelvy 24:15

yeah, and that is a skill to compartmentalize, and sometimes it's a survival skill, and I'm I'm sure that you probably had to do that when you're younger.

Christophe Ngo 24:40

I. I in turn, I, my brain is I actually talking to my younger sister recently about this because we both took different paths but we got. I got to the same destination. For her, 18 moved out and the way I conceptualize she paid with her body in a sense of like she worked, she put herself in situations and experiences to where she's a lot happier in her life and she has the same mentality a lot as me. For me, I stayed at home. I lived at home a lot happier in her life, and she has the same mentality a lot as me. For me, I stayed at home. I lived at home a lot, going through college and helping my parents. But everything was internal in the mind.

Christophe Ngo 25:06

So she's more of I do something to figure it out and more of I figure it out in my head. So I'm more in depth when it comes to connecting the dots in my own head and how I do things and she's more of like how do I connect the dots doing things and understandings in life, because we both realize we're kind of very similar. That's what we we like butted heads a lot because we're so similar yeah with both having ADHD.

Christophe Ngo 25:28

But I realize, like how we did something is just so different. But it all cuts in place of like, hey, I don't need to be this way, I don't have to hold on to this, I don't have to do these things. We both could have had a very dangerous route. I could have been easily committed suicide because of being caught on my own head. I'm to learn how to figure out. How does this connect? What are these? How do they go and where do they come from? My younger sister could have been put, could have been in very dangerous situations yeah oh, I pay with my, my, with my, with my brain.

Christophe Ngo 25:58

That's the price I paid to like figure this stuff out. She paid with her body because she had to like do a lot of work. She had to survive, figure things out on her own two different trajectories and directories. But we it got. Us got to the same thing what does?

Christophe Ngo 26:15

she do uh. Well, right now she uh is going through she has ted's disease, which is thyroid eye disease, so she stopped working. She moved in with my parents so I every like weekend I've been going home, uh, visiting my parents and taking care of her as much as I can just to also like reconnect and kind of spend more time okay, I'm sorry to hear that, that's okay, thank you yeah, that's a lot um, like you said, different trajectories.

Christina McKelvy 26:42

You guys are now me at the same path, but even situationally as well. I, being a caregiver, it's one of my um and specialties, you know, is focusing on caregiver support and I. You talked about shame earlier. I think there's a lot of sometimes shame when people are, as the words you use, greedy even if they're taking care of someone else, like, oh, I don't, I shouldn't be greedy, I need to take care of this individual. If I do this, I'm being greedy.

Understanding Labels and Letting Go

Christophe Ngo 27:19

Curious if that's something that you've experienced or you know, especially with taking care of your sister now, and I think it depends on like the relationship and it's like the idea of like, don't be selfish, don't be selfish yeah and I I'm not a selfish person.

Christophe Ngo 27:37

I don't like to believe but sometimes I had these moments where I become very, very selfish because when it comes to like my emotions, like having ADHD, I also have RSD, which is rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, which a lot of ADHD people have. It's like we internalize things. So, in a certain way, where a lot of things come up as like rejection and shame when it's not, but I'm reacting to it as if it was Because. But I'm reacting to it as if it was Because I was like, having so much inconsistency growing up, like, oh, I can study, but I can't study this idea and always having creating these expectations because your brain is working a certain way with ADHD. So you're right, there is that struggle of like when you talk about caregivers and like feeling selfish, because when you start to caregiver for someone, it can feel it can breed resentment very easily, especially when, like power dynamics go from here and here with parents and children to here and the parents can't do something and kids are like why can't you do something?

Christophe Ngo 28:36

And what I tell people is because the reason you feel that way is because of the label. So give me some backstory. Two, three years ago you asked me hey, were your parents physically abusive to you? I would be like, yeah, you know they beat me asian. You know it's kind of like comes, comes with the territory. You know you get your ass beat. You ask me that now.

Christophe Ngo 28:50

I'd say no, yeah like why, how, how did you get work through your anger towards your parents, that resentment? I go, I see my parents as people who are my parents and not my parents who are people first, I was just going to repeat, I'm sorry, parents who are people, but not people who are parents.

Christina McKelvy 29:12

Did I say that right?

Christophe Ngo 29:13

They are people who are my parents, not my parents, who are people. I hold the label of that first of people then, because if it was a person, I can be more understanding, I can be empathetic. But if I hold it hold the label of that first of people, then, because if it was a person, I can be more understanding, I could be empathetic. But if I hold it under the label of parent, that creates expectation. You should do this, this, this and this. Why didn't you do this? You know it creates its power, the label of power, and it has expectation.

Christophe Ngo 29:35

But if I see my parent, people who are my parents, I'm able to see him as like, no different than me. You just happen to be my mother or my father. You still treat me like I'm six, but that's okay. As a person, I can. I'm okay with that. I can. I'm more understanding, more empathetic and I can hold boundaries better. But there are some other peoples where I don't do that. I have to hold them under this label before cms person, because if I saw him as a person, I would never tolerate that behavior like I would never tolerate that behavior, but because they I keep them under this label. It makes it me keep like I want to keep them in my life. But I have to keep on that label because if I see him as a person, I would never be there, I would never associate with them is there an example that you're willing to share, or a label example?

Christophe Ngo 30:27

I'm being vague intentionally. I'll be honest yeah, yeah, yeah so I?

Christophe Ngo 30:31

another way, I guess a way to put it is like certain friends you want to keep them at this label like, or certain people in your life you're like a cousin or like, oh, because they're my cousin. Well, if I I have to hold maybe you at the of my cousin before then being a person, because if I see you as a person and I didn't like your app, why would I? I wouldn't never tolerate behavior from another person like that. But because you are maybe like a cousin or a certain type of friend, or my friend, a friend's partner, I tolerate because of that label, because if it wasn't for that label, I would have zero tolerance for that type of disrespect.

Christina McKelvy 31:07

Okay, okay, I see what you're saying and I think it also might even come in culturally too, like where like family might like some cultures, like family takes precedent before anything else, or because they're family, you have to maybe include them in certain gatherings, or Absolutely.

Christophe Ngo 31:26

You know. So if you're gonna, that's the thing is because I care, because and simply like just drop them, I go, I could.

Christophe Ngo 31:32

I could just see them as a person, who, who, that's not my friend's partner or a cousin but if I, I, how, I, my value, but because of my values and what I kind of see as family or friendships like that, I don't want to do that, yeah. So, choosing to be hurt, to be, to have that expectation, I'm choosing to a degree. I'm choosing this path knowing full well, taking responsibility, that I will be hurt by this, but I'm choosing instead of getting, instead of putting it on them or putting this expectation okay does that make more sense?

Christina McKelvy 32:09

yeah, no, it does. I, um, and I think that's it's like a almost, like a survival and I think you said this like a survival mechanism or coping mechanism not what I'm doing right now.

Christophe Ngo 32:20

No, it's a way for me to see people's humanity. If I see the person just as an individual, it's a lot easier to kind like how do I want to. But holding labels of like partner or family, brother, sister, parent, that creates expectation.

Christina McKelvy 32:37

Yeah, so it's easier that way.

Christophe Ngo 32:40

I don't say it's easier, but it helped me let go. It's not about it being easier, it's about I could. The easy route is to never talk to those people. That piss me off being compassionate okay and by seeing their humanity and being seen the aspects of them, I go oh, you're flawed like me. So people ask how do I let go? Let go my a lot of my anger, towards my parents especially, is I stop seeing him as my parents. I see him as people who are my parents it's like I'm Christophe.

Christophe Ngo 33:15

I am a person who's also a therapist. Yeah, it's just an aspect of their identity, but it's not who they are. They're not just my parents. Through and through, they also are people yeah, okay, yeah, people yeah. Okay, yeah, I have a weird way of looking at things. I get it.

Christina McKelvy 33:35

No, it's helpful, though. I mean it's different perspectives and it helps reframe, you know, and so there might be someone listening who was like, oh, that will help me set up those boundaries that I need by thinking, you know, this way. Yeah.

Christina McKelvy 33:49

I want to pivot and just cause I'm really curious and I we'll have enough time and if not I'll bring you back. But we talked about, you know, and shame has kind of been, I think, the underlying or one of the underlying themes in our discussion today. You mentioned, you know, you work with, you know, kink and sex positive focuses. I am curious about the connection between what you've seen, between shame and kink.

Navigating Shame and Sexual Identity

Christophe Ngo 34:18

There's a lot of articles, there's a lot of kind of going on about that and I think this I don't think there's one right answer, but I will tell you my personal opinion about it is I think there's a correlation with shame and kink and I think what happens he's just a rough idea that got not fleshed out, not backed by any side, just personal opinion. I think for some people it's when they deal with shame, they feel shame about something they don't know how to deal with it and so, in a weird way, by sexualizing, it makes it easier to deal with shame. They feel shame about something they don't know how to deal with it and so, in a weird way, by sexualizing, it makes it easier to deal with, into a sort of pleasure. It's something and it's like it's a way to deal with it and kink can be very therapeutic. Or like, specifically, kink can be very therapeutic. But it doesn't mean it always happens. Sometimes it can just be because it's fun or it's pleasurable. Yeah.

Christophe Ngo 35:11

But everything in moderation, right, it's how you do it. And a client talked to me about this concept he had of there's kink and there's post kink. I go what he goes. Kink is like oh, it's you feeling all this desire of post kink is like. After you learn to accept or deal with whatever that, whatever that reason, you like this kink or that shame or whatever emotion tied to it or whatever it could be. It stopped having this allure because it stops being exotic, it stops being this taboo thing because you're like it's normalized. I've accepted this aspect of me. I don't feel shame about it. It's okay. Yeah, so like why is the? Why is the magic? On, whereas how come? I don't feel this way anymore.

Christophe Ngo 35:47

It's maybe okay, yeah, but like why is the? Why is the magic gone? Whereas how come I don't feel this way anymore? It's maybe because you've learned to deal with it, cause a lot of times people will use kink as therapeutic but to not actually heal, and some people don't want to heal because it takes away the lure of it.

Christina McKelvy 36:04

I see how you circled out there.

Christophe Ngo 36:06

Not saying this is accurate, nothing, but it's just a discussion I've had with a couple of clients and they had this idea where I assume they start to accept an aspect of themselves. Maybe they're more like something about their sexuality or maybe a certain thing about themselves. They become more comfortable with him, happy. But now when they do it they're like it doesn't get that initial excitement, or like like taboo or wrong and so it. Or like like taboo or wrong and stuff. But they're like, oh, I'm not getting so much, oh, because I've healed from it from the shame yeah, it's another chairman.

Christophe Ngo 36:33

that could just be something you enjoy and you can just have fun with it and just be in that moment, without pretending to not pretending or like simply playing a character or reliving a traumatic memory or trying to reclaim your power. That way, a A lot of times it's about power and control. People want to reclaim it, but it's like giving it and taking it back. But what happens if you're able to completely take back? So giving it doesn't seem as taboo. It's like, oh my God, I'm like what could happen? I can give it, I can enjoy it, and some people can thrive through that, they can really be themselves. And some people are like, why does this feel? Like it's missing?

Christina McKelvy 37:15

That kind of like going back to what you were talking about before, that trauma or that hurt or you know, yeah, that experience that they had, that they internalized and never really kind of worked out.

Christophe Ngo 37:28

Or have I noticed the way it came from? Again, not everyone goes through this, but a lot of people my clients I've had, like they had this shame with kink and sex and aspects of their body because something happened and they're like why do I sexualize this? And they feel a lot of shame towards it. It's about kind of working through that. This is not like a theory, this is an idea. It's like you know there's a lot of discussion Can think, be therapeutic, yeah, can it be dangerous or harmful? Absolutely, it could be a negative coping skill. Yeah.

Christophe Ngo 38:02

Everything in moderation. It's what you're using it for. It's a tool, just like a way to kind of compute the process yeah, it's a, it's a tool, it's moderation.

Christina McKelvy 38:16

And also I go back to the labels. When you're talking about like labeling, different individuals, like you know, cousin, sister, whatever labeling maybe even kink like behaviors or like, if that's even helpful, like with the shame. Or you know someone now labels oh, this is kink, what that means for them. Like when they're processing, like those feelings of whether or not they feel shame or not.

Christophe Ngo 38:42

Absolutely. And there's, it's, it's, it's that idea, it's just that idea in itself and kind of figuring that like that shame and aspect is like how do you, how do you heal from it, you know, and how do you make it okay, how do you make peace with it? I knew some people who were struggling because they were like I about an aspect of themselves, like about sexuality. I always had an inkling but I wasn't sure. Yeah, and I didn't. When I finally experimented, explore, I go, oh, I do like this. But even then I realized there was a lot of shame in it, because growing up in the, I was, I grew up, I was born 1990. In the 90s it was boy and girl, black and white, blue and blue and pink, anything in between, you were gay or you were something.

Christina McKelvy 39:32

Yeah, very binary, Bethan.

Christophe Ngo 39:34

Very binary. But that created a lot of issues because, when it comes to expressing aspects of my femininity or just being a certain way, I felt like I feel so much shame doing it, even though I liked it Like I like painting my nails or like getting my hair done, or I like dressing up looking nice but at the same time, even though I liked it like I like painting my nails or like getting my hair done or I like dressing up looking nice but at the same time, even though I was doing it, there was a bit of shame, like oh, I'm not a man, I'm not masculine, because I'm not like this buff, macho dude. I'm a tall, I'm a six, to like skinny Asian person.

Christophe Ngo 40:05

So there's also that Asian cultural thing where, like there was not, there was no BTS back back in the 90s, you know. So asians were not like attractive, we were like the sidekick. So there's that and this idea of like masculine femininity and being more. I separate the two and anything that crossed it. I felt kind of bad but I liked Just naturally I'm more of like an effeminate, not not actually matching, I'm just who I am, like I'm not. I'm just who I am, whether it be. But when it comes to like ideal standards of masculinity and a stereotype, I didn't fit in that box. So I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere.

Christina McKelvy 40:46

So not having a label was helpful.

Christophe Ngo 40:52

Yeah, fit in anywhere. So not having a label was helpful. Yeah, and it was also hard, because, you know, finding community helped me be an individual, helped me be comfortable to be an individual when I found my like, the certain community, my community, my group, one of the different groups I have yeah, I felt comfortable to be an individual instead of because I felt accepted. When I was accepted, I can express myself how I want, knowing that I wouldn't get like shamed for it.

Christina McKelvy 41:14

So community gave me the opportunity to be an individual yeah, yeah, that, and I'm just using just for the terms that a label. Being part of the lgbtq community, it's a label, but it helped you with that individuality where I don't really need that label.

Christophe Ngo 41:33

Yeah, it's a label, it's an aspect of my identity, but it's not who I am. We have layers to us.

Christina McKelvy 41:38

Being.

Christophe Ngo 41:38

Asian or queer or a therapist. It's just layers like onions, so we're all like ogres. Yeah. Yeah, ogres, told you bad dad jokes for days. And we get caught up on an aspect of these identities, of these labels that we put on ourselves, where they'd be like oh, I'm Asian, everything about me is, you know, that was like okay, but what else is there to you?

Christina McKelvy 42:03

Right.

Christophe Ngo 42:05

You're not just Asian. You are also these aspects where we get caught up on these things, we tear up, taking pride in them or want something about them. We hold on to this. I these aspects, like I hold on to this concept of not enough, I am not enough, nothing I do is enough, so I must keep doing more. But that's very toxic and very destructive yeah, and you are enough.

Christina McKelvy 42:27

You know you're human and I was gonna throw in a dad joke you're 10 enough and figure out how to put your name in it, but I don't think I can. Um, I see that we have a couple. I know you have a noon, um, so I wanted to close it with and like I'm gonna totally have you back because, um, I feel like there's so many different avenues that we can go down absolutely I'd love to be back on yeah, for sure, um.

Christina McKelvy 42:56

So just to close, I want to um ask you. I asked this question to everybody and you answered it before. So if you want to, you know, expand on that in the next like couple minutes or add something different. But what gives you hope? You mentioned earlier greed.

Christophe Ngo 43:09

If you want to expand on that or add, like I mentioned, something different, um, yeah, I, I think a simple way of doing it, like greed, gives me hope, you know, and I always tell clients and this is like another quote that not original, I wish it was but if you want something you never had, you have to do things you've never done, and I think that's true. People get caught up in this idea of like they want these things. Okay, then you have to do something different. Definition of sanity is doing things same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

Christophe Ngo 43:51

Do something different yeah and a current model that I I've been reminding myself to help with a lot of my some of my struggle. I tell myself less is more. The less things I focus on, the more things I can get done, because it's easy to get overwhelmed by expectation in the bigger picture. But the problem with that is you get overwhelmed. So how do you solve that? You take one step at a time, so you focus on one thing.

Christina McKelvy 44:20

You go from there like that old saying how do you I'm totally butchered, but how do you eat elephant one bite at a time?

Christophe Ngo 44:29

yeah and I tell people whatever you're struggling with, break it down to 10 steps. If that's too hard, 10 more steps. If that's easy you're not doing it, then it's not easy. Do this. Well, I can do it. Okay, are you doing it? No, then it's not easy, because you're not clearly not doing it. Yeah, am I then it's not easy.

Exploring Identity and Self-Care

Christina McKelvy 44:50

Cause you're not clearly not doing it Am.

Christophe Ngo 44:56

I breaking it down Makes it more manageable and instills hope.

Christina McKelvy 45:02

It can't way of putting it. Yeah, I like that. I like that wrap, that connection point. It was good, thank you. Thank you Well, christophe, it was so great you on and you know just we kind of, you know, dwelled into so many different topics, but I think the underlying theme is that labels identity, shame and allowing yourself to be greedy enough to move forward and take care of yourself and be able to figure that out. You know, figure out what your identity is and, um, whatnot. So, thank you so much for being here and I will put, um, how to find you, your website, instagram stuff in the show notes.

Christophe Ngo 45:39

Yeah, no problem, one thing to say um, always your pleasure, never a chore well, thank you all right bye, bye.